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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show i'm martin

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willis your host we have a great show

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this evening for you in just a minute we

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have

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ted

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rowe this uh he's a uh

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special guest that uh kind of last

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minute and we're gonna be uh talking

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about i'm gonna make things real

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confusing for everyone tonight we're

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gonna be talking about

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narcap

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a little bit but no he's got some things

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to announce and the only reason i bring

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that up is because he's involved with

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that but tonight later on the main guest

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is jack brewer he's going to be talking

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about nycap

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and some other things as well

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so uh i know all these uh um

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all these things we have to keep track

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of what means what and all that and uh

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so our guest has a great blog called the

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ufotrail

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blogspot.com and lots of information

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over there some people call him a

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skeptic i think he's looking at

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we can call him a skeptic i'm never shy

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away from having a skeptic on the show

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i don't particularly like debunkers i

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don't call him a debunker but anyway

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jack brew is a great guy coming up and i

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want to say we have two shows this week

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thursday afternoon on youtube and

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facebook only

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is uh mark olly and he's going to be

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talking about crystal skulls which i've

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always had a fascination with

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uh i went to expo 67 you know i think it

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was about 10 years after it was still

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open up in quebec canada and i saw a

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crystal skull there and i was totally

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mesmerized by it and uh some of them

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came from mayan ruins i'm not sure um

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where

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know that there was a hoax out there at

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one time uh something supposed to be

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ancient anyway check out that's on the

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ufo uh i mean it's on our

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our uh youtube channel only and it's

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live streaming this thursday at 3 p.m

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mark ollie and if you want to get

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notifications on youtube simply just

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subscribe

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to our channel and click the

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notification bell on the side so this

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week's blog is uh taken aboard a ufo and

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turned into a mutant now this is a story

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of charles lear who does uh writes our

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blogs you know talks a lot about people

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are you know have these incredible

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stories and not always he doesn't always

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talk about things that are factual

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because of course a lot of this stuff or

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99 of it can't be proven other than

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something happening anyway it's a good

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read and check it out it's kind of a

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short blog but he also has a follow-up

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on the update of irma rick the story of

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the woman supposedly saying she was

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transported by a ufo in in uh brazil

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um i think it was bru no argentina i'm

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sorry um she was supposedly transported

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in the middle of the night 60 miles

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showed up with uh you you know where she

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couldn't have walked that far who knows

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whatever happened it's an interesting

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story and she certainly doesn't look

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like someone that could have well i

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shouldn't say it that way she would have

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a hard time walking that far anyone

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would but uh uh i'll better just leave

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it at that and uh anyway so check out

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those blogs and thank you everyone who

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supports the show i really appreciate it

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i could not do that without you i'm

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going to be on the road in a little

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while and i'm going to be doing the show

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from the road uh for a little bit and a

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lot of things coming up a lot of great

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guests coming up and all that for right

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now i'm going to bring in ted rowe he is

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in

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yeah probably um

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we've got some weather coming through

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it's uh it rains where i'm at 200 inches

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a year so yeah it's like you can count

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on the rain every day right

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every day and this is actually a dry

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moment so

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so you got it you got it right now we

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better hurry up so uh

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you send me a text i mean you have kind

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of an interesting announcement related

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to the ufo topic and

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and something you said is pretty

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incredible after 50 years or something

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like that and i'd love for you to spill

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it and tell us what's going on

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well sure um the american institute of

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aeronautics and astronautics

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contacted me right after the odni report

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was released

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last june

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and invited me to join a small group of

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speakers at their av-21 conference to

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advocate for the scientific study of uae

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and we did that and then about a month

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later they called us back

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and invited us to form into a

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development team to prepare a

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a function inside of aiaa that would

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address

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uap and aviation safety and also push

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back against the stigma that that

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inhibits scientific engagement

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yeah we spent the last six months

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working on that that program and

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and uh the back story is just that when

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i was a kid trying to resolve

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ufo experiences in my life and my

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family's life i uh

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i was looking up

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ufo in the card catalog at the library

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and of course aiaa was right at the

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front with their statement on ufos they

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had taken a counter position to

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project blue book and

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condon in their conclusions

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and advocated for further study they had

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one i think a local chapter did a

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conference on uap in los angeles or

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something

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uh shortly thereafter and then it kind

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of died on the vine

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now 50 years later i'm part of that

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story and it's

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kind of a kind of interesting you know

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from a couple of angles

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yeah that that is that is great that is

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great uh by the way uh a library is a

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place where they have books

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just for people

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and that card file is where you used to

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look up the book yeah right

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yeah yeah yeah but uh well that's that's

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pretty exciting and and so

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yeah the stigma as you know because what

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you've been involved in and with narcap

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is uh and that's national aviation re

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national aviation reporting

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yeah what's up

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phenomenon yeah somehow yeah

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yeah it is it is and um just

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for the person who's never

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um really looked into that at all can

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you explain a little bit what that

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what's involved in that

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well dr haynes and i founded narcap in

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1999 2000 uh to address uh

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uap reports that involved aviation

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safety

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and a lot of the pilot reports uh have

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safety factors involved in the report

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but

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the data moves away from the aviation

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system and the safety planners that

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could use that information

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so we spent

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the last 22 years basically uh

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advocating and collecting data on on

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these types of incidents

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and then uh the od and i report came out

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and from their own data found the same

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concerns

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and

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well well this aia

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effort is not uh derivative of narcap we

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didn't you know they're not following

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our work

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we're in parallel with them

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we both have the same concerns pretty

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much the same perspective

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now

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one thing that always comes to mind

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when i talk to someone like you and i

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don't know if i spoke to you about this

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before when you were on but um

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gate c17 back 2007

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o'hare airport was the the disc that was

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above the gate and then shot up through

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the clouds left punched a hole in it for

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those of you that are new and have not

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really

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looked at that story but one of the

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things i've said when i've talked to

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people about this well enough time that

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was 2007 so much time has gone by there

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are people that should have retired by

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now that you think would be talking

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about it and i i just wonder what your

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thoughts were on that

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it's it's entirely possible i i haven't

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done any follow-up with witnesses

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we keep seeing stories related to the

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the

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o'hare

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incursion

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but

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we only found one person that even

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said that they had taken a photograph or

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one person it was referred to as

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having taken a photograph and they never

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stepped forward i don't know if there

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was a photograph all the photographic

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evidence i've seen has been

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you know poked or fake

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uh

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yeah and at the time no cell phone

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cameras weren't that prominent you know

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and and

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you know it doesn't surprise me

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uh it's not a hill that case is not a

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hill to die on it's just an example of

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an incursion in the class b restricted

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airspace

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and and the attempts to

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mitigate those things and and again the

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data didn't go to safety planners as it

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turns out the faa doesn't take ufo

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reports hasn't for decades

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and uh so so here uh so if you've got a

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case that involves a ufo where you where

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souls were on board and you were

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concerned there's no no but nobody

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nobody cares

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well i don't i don't understand that if

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you really think about it like

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that it's a safety issue and why

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wouldn't why wouldn't they be interested

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in that

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well if you can imagine what it was like

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for the uap task force to show up at the

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faa offices and say hey show us all that

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great

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pilot ufo stuff you guys have and they

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don't have anything you know oh we

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haven't i mean if you look at the manual

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the manual says take it elsewhere

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the manual says

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if you want to report a ufo encounter

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it doesn't even make any sense to me

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because if they were flying by and there

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was a balloon or a drone or something of

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course they had reported you know

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through the faa and what is the

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difference

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that it's under well

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well it's just it's something they can't

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identify and and that that that standard

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is is unacceptable we we

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briefed the um

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aviation safety reporting system

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ames research center

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and talk to them about it and they do

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get those reports often anonymous

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but that's the only place where pilots

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could go now that now that we have the

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the

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00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:47,519
setting up a reporting system across all

282
00:11:51,670 --> 00:11:49,519
government bureaucracies that centers in

283
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:51,680
on their program kind of like the french

284
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,680
program at japan

285
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:55,360
right yeah

286
00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:58,160
hopefully that that data will will

287
00:12:02,069 --> 00:11:59,920
first off it'll be collected but then

288
00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:02,079
the problem is again it moves away from

289
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,320
the aviation system into the defense

290
00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:06,480
establishment so aviation safety

291
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:08,639
planners still don't have what they need

292
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:10,160
even though the odni reports

293
00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:11,839
specifically stated that along with

294
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:13,360
national security

295
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:15,360
they're a threat to aviation

296
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:16,160
so

297
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:21,839
through aia is going to

298
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:22,800
um

299
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,320
help us you know address issues of data

300
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:28,079
integrity and access

301
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:28,959
yeah

302
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:31,360
well i learned something ted um i had no

303
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:34,240
idea that they they washed their hands

304
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:36,560
of i just thought they didn't pass along

305
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:39,040
any information but i had no idea that

306
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:39,839
they

307
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:47,279
you look at the aeronautical instruction

308
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:49,440
manual you know the aim or you look at

309
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:51,040
the air traffic control instruction

310
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:53,440
manual their entries on reporting uap

311
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:55,680
are the same and they they don't do it

312
00:13:02,629 --> 00:12:59,829
interesting

313
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,639
well i hope the day comes where pilots

314
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:03,839
are not going to worry about losing

315
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:05,040
their jobs

316
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:06,959
uh you know by reporting something

317
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:09,040
because there's probably a lot more seen

318
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:11,360
out there than ever reported

319
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:14,560
absolutely and and i that is coming um

320
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:16,079
because like i said now the date is

321
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:17,440
going to be collected and it's a matter

322
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:19,040
of us trying to get a hold of some of it

323
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:20,959
so we can do the right thing with it in

324
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:21,920
terms of

325
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:24,320
making sure pilots are prepared for the

326
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,519
unexpected yeah and uh

327
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:29,600
i wrote a pilot advisory about this it's

328
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,920
been read in 140 countries and it's just

329
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:34,320
a conservative angle on how to deal with

330
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:35,360
it so

331
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:36,240
yeah

332
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,600
um i've been um i i've told people

333
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:41,680
before on the show that i i was a former

334
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:44,800
for a while i was a flight attendant and

335
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:47,040
so i got to ride up in the cockpit a

336
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:49,760
number of times and you can just see a

337
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:52,720
vast area i mean you can see for miles

338
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:55,120
and miles and miles on a clear day it's

339
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:57,360
amazing i don't know how many miles it

340
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,720
seems like but seems like you can see

341
00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:00,720
easily for 100 miles

342
00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:03,040
so you know anything in the sky you

343
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:05,199
would think that um that pilots would

344
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:07,040
see more actually

345
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:08,639
um with all the reports on the ground

346
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:10,079
you'd think they'd see more than

347
00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:11,360
reported

348
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:13,040
well they do and they're reticent to

349
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:15,600
talk about it i i i can't tell you the

350
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:17,440
number of times i've been somewhere and

351
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:19,839
people know who i am and somebody pulled

352
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:22,000
me aside and said hey you know

353
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:23,839
what i was an air traffic controller at

354
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:26,560
x military base or i was a i was a pilot

355
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:27,680
flying for

356
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:28,880
something and i want to tell you my

357
00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:30,399
story and and

358
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:32,240
and so we get the stories there there's

359
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:34,240
a lot more than we actually know about

360
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:37,440
because the system's been hostile to uh

361
00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:38,480
reporting

362
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:40,240
excellent i i think it's starting to

363
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:41,839
rain or those insects yeah it's starting

364
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,790
so anyway uh ted thank you so much it's

365
00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:51,040
always a pleasure talking to you

366
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:51,920
pleasure

367
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:54,880
yeah take care all right i know

368
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,639
all right everyone so our guests our

369
00:15:02,150 --> 00:14:58,800
main guest tonight is coming up right

370
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:02,160
now uh jack welcome to the show

371
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:04,240
thank you for having me it's always

372
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:06,560
great to be here yes i think it was up

373
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:10,240
it was 2016 when you were on before as

374
00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:14,240
time just ticks away it sure does yeah

375
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:16,079
and so you've been up to all kinds of

376
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:18,880
things your your uh

377
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:22,480
blog is called the ufo trail at blogspot

378
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:25,519
and um my friend wrote for you

379
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,920
way back in 2016 about hypnotherapy and

380
00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:30,000
i thought that was interesting um she

381
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:32,000
remembered it and i forgot all about it

382
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,880
but

383
00:15:35,749 --> 00:15:34,320
you remembered every bit about it so

384
00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:35,759
that's great

385
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:38,800
i did remember donna your friend i

386
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:41,040
remember that when i did your show

387
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:44,320
before she called in and we talked and i

388
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:46,800
was interested enough in

389
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:50,079
uh her comments that she and i connected

390
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:52,959
off of the show as well and i

391
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:55,199
uh interacted with her some more by

392
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:58,720
email and did a blog post about it and

393
00:16:02,389 --> 00:15:59,440
yeah

394
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:02,399
i i think a lot of people have

395
00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:03,440
um

396
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:07,600
these interactions with ufo researchers

397
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:10,720
and and circumstances that arise

398
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:12,639
that uh

399
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:14,959
are worthy of hearing and giving

400
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:17,519
attention that they're just not willing

401
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:20,639
to try to fight to get you know on the

402
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:23,680
airwaves or get some attention to

403
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:27,600
uh their story because oftentimes

404
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:30,560
they're very personal stories and they

405
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:33,279
often involve people besides just

406
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:35,360
ourselves as well

407
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:39,199
and uh yeah i i certainly remember donna

408
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:41,680
and her circumstances and i'm glad to

409
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:42,560
hear

410
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:44,560
uh she she

411
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:47,120
remembered it and i hope she valued it

412
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:49,199
and that things are going well

413
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:50,480
yeah yeah

414
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,279
so

415
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,240
uh well it's always it's always great to

416
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:56,800
have you on and uh you know i don't know

417
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,880
if you if i announced you in the proper

418
00:17:01,350 --> 00:17:00,079
way but i said

419
00:17:03,030 --> 00:17:01,360
i said uh

420
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:03,040
some people call you a skeptic would you

421
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:04,959
say you're just looking at this

422
00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:07,760
topic um logically is what i would say

423
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:09,439
more than you're not a debunker you

424
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:11,520
don't bash people or anything like that

425
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,120
and someone wrote in somewhere in the

426
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:15,760
chat room i saw well he's not a debunker

427
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:18,640
at all so um i never called you one and

428
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:21,679
i'm um i i i like to hear

429
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:23,919
uh the skeptical side of things because

430
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:27,039
i think um i remember stan friedman says

431
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:28,559
you know have an open mind but don't let

432
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:30,160
your brain fall out

433
00:17:37,029 --> 00:17:33,600
you know yeah yeah and you know maybe

434
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:37,039
debunking is in the eye of the beholder

435
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:39,280
exactly yeah

436
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:42,160
so uh you wrote about well you've

437
00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:45,600
written it um some books and one of them

438
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:47,440
um we're going to be talking about a

439
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:49,919
little bit later and that was called

440
00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:52,480
the grace or framed just quickly touch

441
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:54,160
on or what's the title to that one

442
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,120
exactly

443
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:57,600
the graves have been framed

444
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:59,120
exploitation

445
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:01,520
in the ufo community

446
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:05,200
and the grades have been framed was a

447
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:07,760
phrase that that kind of got

448
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:10,400
batted around with some people i used to

449
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:12,480
interact with online

450
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:15,440
and it was kind of a way

451
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:16,720
to

452
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:20,960
the way we think about things and the

453
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:23,600
way that we look at things and we could

454
00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:27,039
try a number of ways to tell people

455
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:28,400
that

456
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:31,600
a lot of the ufo lord doesn't stand up

457
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:35,280
to scrutiny or a lot of the claims are

458
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:38,480
anecdotal and unsubstantiated

459
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:41,280
and one of the phrases that that kind of

460
00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:43,520
seemed to fit that to try to get people

461
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:46,240
to come at it from a different direction

462
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:48,960
was just the grays have been framed man

463
00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:51,200
it's you know they they haven't done

464
00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:56,080
everything that they're accused of

465
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:59,039
yeah um yeah um

466
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:01,760
i i've always you know i was always on

467
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:03,039
the fence with

468
00:19:06,789 --> 00:19:05,120
you know it's very interesting and it

469
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:06,799
just i think it's interesting that

470
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:08,960
people have reported

471
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:11,200
seeing these beings that you know like

472
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:13,200
on the whitley strieber book

473
00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:15,520
you know that look like

474
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,400
look like that and um you know it's been

475
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:20,720
mentioned over and over again and and

476
00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:23,120
you know um and then people are talk

477
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,320
about characteristics of them being um

478
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:28,480
almost you know emotionless

479
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,280
and

480
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:31,600
you know like drones doing their job or

481
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:34,480
something like that but uh but anyway um

482
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,200
yeah

483
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,200
until i see when i i have to remain

484
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:39,360
skeptic myself but it is pretty

485
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,480
interesting

486
00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:42,240
it's not just here in this country

487
00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:44,559
people are reporting it all over

488
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:46,400
some people say that it's you know pop

489
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:49,280
culture influence uh you know all types

490
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:52,400
of things like that so i i have no idea

491
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:55,760
yes um mr strieber's book cover

492
00:20:03,029 --> 00:19:59,520
communion that's definitely a striking

493
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:03,039
haunting image that influenced people

494
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:04,559
quite a bit

495
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:07,039
i was talking with your support staff

496
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:09,520
before the show and

497
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:12,960
i i think that most all of us

498
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:17,360
many of us uh come at this topic because

499
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:21,039
we think there's something to it and

500
00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:22,640
uh

501
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:26,159
people that that believe in an alien

502
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,159
presence or an other

503
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,200
or something to that effect

504
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:33,520
they deserve the same dignity and

505
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:34,480
respect

506
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,080
that that we

507
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:38,400
would afford those who don't believe

508
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:40,320
that or or

509
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,120
that we would afford anyone

510
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:45,679
and i think where some of the problems

511
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:47,600
arise martin

512
00:20:52,669 --> 00:20:49,200
is

513
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,679
we begin to argue things from a

514
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:55,440
personalized perspective and it

515
00:21:01,750 --> 00:20:58,000
shouldn't always be that way

516
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:01,760
uh for instance if

517
00:21:08,029 --> 00:21:05,120
challenge things that a researcher has

518
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:08,039
asserted or if i challenge their

519
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:09,679
methodology

520
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,000
as being flawed and and not as solid as

521
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:16,559
they purport it to be

522
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:19,440
that is a different argument

523
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:20,880
from

524
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:24,880
does person a's experiences were they

525
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:27,200
real or were they imagined

526
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,960
but oftentimes an experiencer

527
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:32,480
will

528
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:34,240
kind of

529
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:35,520
project

530
00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:37,520
the whole argument

531
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:41,840
on if there's any substance to

532
00:21:46,149 --> 00:21:44,960
the ufo topic at all

533
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:46,159
by

534
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:49,039
questioning any one researcher or any

535
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:52,799
one methodology or any single report

536
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:55,600
and it it can become almost a reverse

537
00:22:03,669 --> 00:21:59,360
stigmatism that critical thinkers will

538
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,679
shy away from the subject just because

539
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:05,919
it and not because

540
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:08,080
they're afraid of being criticized for

541
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:10,640
looking at it but they just don't want

542
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:12,320
to get

543
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:15,440
publicly bashed and

544
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:18,159
have groups of

545
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:21,280
pro-ufo people sent after them to

546
00:22:26,789 --> 00:22:24,480
discourage them from being critical so

547
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:26,799
it can almost become a reverse

548
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:28,400
stigmatism

549
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,280
but i i think everyone does deserve

550
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,520
respect and

551
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:35,520
uh

552
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:38,960
tolerance about how they come to

553
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:41,760
have the beliefs and the opinions they

554
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,120
have

555
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:45,760
that could spread across of all parts of

556
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:47,200
our society

557
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:50,080
today that that way of thinking

558
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:52,480
you know uh because we

559
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:53,360
you know

560
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:55,679
we're very divisive these days in so

561
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:58,799
many ways and and um you know

562
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:01,919
if we can relax a little bit and let

563
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:04,159
people believe what they want as long as

564
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:06,559
they're not hurting other people

565
00:23:10,149 --> 00:23:08,799
you know what's the harm in that

566
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:10,159
that type of thing

567
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:13,840
but um so let's hear about uh nycap i

568
00:23:19,430 --> 00:23:16,799
think this is very interesting um that

569
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:19,440
there may be uh an intelligence a us

570
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:21,200
intelligence connection

571
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:24,880
and what what led you down this path

572
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:31,110
the short answer to that is uh there's

573
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:35,520
certainly a us and cia intelligence

574
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:39,120
connection with nycap

575
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:40,240
and

576
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,080
its purposes become a bit more

577
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:47,279
up for debate what what led me down that

578
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:48,799
path

579
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:52,320
is the more and more i i got interested

580
00:23:59,909 --> 00:23:55,760
in this martin and after

581
00:24:03,190 --> 00:23:59,919
going to a ridiculous amount of mufon

582
00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:03,200
meetings and ufo conferences and

583
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:06,080
reading this and listening to that

584
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:07,760
i came to

585
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:11,200
the conclusion that

586
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,799
one really cannot solve a scientific

587
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:16,320
question

588
00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:19,279
with a laptop and and no equipment yeah

589
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:22,080
you know you i understand why people

590
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:25,520
investigate ufo sightings i understand

591
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:28,880
why they interview experiencers i i get

592
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:29,840
that

593
00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:32,880
some people are interested in it

594
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:36,559
but after chasing my tail long enough i

595
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:39,919
became much less interested in

596
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:42,960
stories that have no resolution

597
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:46,880
and i became much more interested in the

598
00:24:50,269 --> 00:24:49,360
social circumstances

599
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:50,279
and

600
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:52,640
materials that

601
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:54,559
are available through the freedom of

602
00:24:59,590 --> 00:24:58,480
information act and newspaper archives

603
00:25:02,789 --> 00:24:59,600
and

604
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:02,799
uh various um

605
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:06,240
material and records that are recognized

606
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:08,320
as uh

607
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,600
professional research standards

608
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:13,200
and so

609
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:15,440
one of the things that that i was

610
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:17,760
interested in was where the intelligence

611
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,080
community overlaps

612
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:22,559
with the ufo community

613
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:26,159
and so i was interested in bill moore

614
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:30,720
and the 1990s heyday of ufology and of

615
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:33,520
course the more recent uh

616
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:37,039
atip story and and to the stars academy

617
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:38,640
and that kind of thing

618
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:42,480
but it seemed like i was overlooking

619
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:45,840
a big a big piece of the

620
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:47,039
ic

621
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:49,919
ufo community connection

622
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:52,159
with nycap and so

623
00:25:56,110 --> 00:25:54,880
i really didn't know much about the

624
00:25:58,950 --> 00:25:56,120
national

625
00:26:01,669 --> 00:25:58,960
investigations committee on aerial

626
00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:01,679
phenomena nycap

627
00:26:09,029 --> 00:26:05,440
a mid-20th century ufo group

628
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:09,039
and when i began looking into it

629
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:12,640
i started doing some foia requests

630
00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:15,760
and finding more and more

631
00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:23,110
high ranking members of the cia

632
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:26,400
and there was just an undeniable

633
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:27,840
connection

634
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:30,480
between

635
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:33,440
a group of people that were on

636
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:34,240
the

637
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:42,799
and

638
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:50,880
directly correlated with the people that

639
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:53,440
incorporate nycap

640
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:56,159
and ran it initially

641
00:27:02,470 --> 00:26:59,200
and i started out doing some blog posts

642
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:02,480
about it and was surprised how much

643
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:04,840
material

644
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:07,679
directly corroborated

645
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:10,799
these circumstances so i ended up

646
00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:12,720
putting it in a book

647
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:16,320
and am still getting more material

648
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:21,279
as i say from newspaper archives foia

649
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:22,799
requests

650
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:25,679
there's a great deal of material

651
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,269
archive collections at colleges letter

652
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:35,679
letters that are saved and things like

653
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:36,559
that

654
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:42,640
virtually untapped resources and i hope

655
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:45,440
to be looking into some of that

656
00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:48,960
and i can understand

657
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:51,840
people are interested in ufos and they

658
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:54,559
want to hear about aliens

659
00:28:00,789 --> 00:27:57,840
and so oftentimes if there's not a

660
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:00,799
flying saucer in this story they're not

661
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:02,480
really interested

662
00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:06,320
but i think we're really overlooking a

663
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:09,039
big part of the cultural puzzle the

664
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:10,799
social puzzle

665
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:14,080
how all of this stuff came to be

666
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:18,880
in so many of our daily lives and

667
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,080
our our forward-thinking consciousness

668
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:25,120
if we don't go back and look at how some

669
00:28:30,190 --> 00:28:27,039
of the original

670
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:30,200
american ufo groups were formed and

671
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:33,279
incorporated and what some of those

672
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:35,760
initial intentions may have been that

673
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:38,240
then it all just kind of snowballed out

674
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:43,590
um there was a story that

675
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:45,120
ray stanford

676
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:46,240
told me

677
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:47,760
are you familiar with who ray stanford

678
00:28:51,909 --> 00:28:48,720
is

679
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:51,919
i am yeah he told me that he was

680
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:53,679
involved in

681
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:55,600
a conference

682
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:56,480
and

683
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:01,200
that all of a sudden had funds of 75 000

684
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:04,000
and a shell company that he traced back

685
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:06,399
to american you know like uh it was

686
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:08,320
through the intelligence or i would have

687
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:10,320
to talk to him more about it but

688
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:12,240
um you know there was it was a kind of a

689
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:14,159
big deal at the time

690
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:16,799
and this was going back to the 1970s it

691
00:29:19,830 --> 00:29:18,240
was very expensive and all of a sudden

692
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:19,840
it was paid for

693
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:21,200
so

694
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:22,320
are they

695
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:24,000
would you say that this is they're

696
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:25,760
possibly looking

697
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:27,120
to get

698
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:31,120
inside information about what's going on

699
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,799
with the public or what's going on with

700
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:36,799
you know the possibility of

701
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:39,279
ufos and us being visited which would

702
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:42,080
you say which would you think

703
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:45,600
i tend to think the latter is a low

704
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:49,120
priority i i don't think that

705
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:50,799
uh

706
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:54,000
director helen coder with the cia would

707
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:57,279
have come to a civilian organization for

708
00:30:02,710 --> 00:29:58,399
instance

709
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:02,720
to learn about ufos and and potential

710
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:05,919
aliens that's just my opinion

711
00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:09,440
what i feel pretty confident about

712
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:12,640
is that the purpose of the

713
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:15,039
intelligence community involvement the

714
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:19,360
cia involvement the dia involvement i

715
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:22,480
think it changes from one instance to

716
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:23,679
another

717
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:33,200
and in nycap's uh

718
00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:37,360
instance the cold war was a big deal

719
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:41,279
i think that things played in like

720
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:44,480
the nycap director donald kehoe

721
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:48,799
his signature move was getting leaks

722
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:52,399
out of the military from pilots from

723
00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:55,360
people that would give him documents

724
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:57,679
give him stories

725
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:01,679
i mean let's face it the the fbi is not

726
00:31:07,509 --> 00:31:04,720
doing its job if it's not interested in

727
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:07,519
those leaks and it doesn't have to be

728
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:10,080
for the purpose of what the leaks are

729
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:12,159
about

730
00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:13,360
uh

731
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:15,600
something else the first thing that came

732
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:18,640
to mind martin when you mention that

733
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:22,320
uh mr stanford said the intelligence

734
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,200
community had set up a conference

735
00:31:31,509 --> 00:31:28,240
it's now known that it's a it was a

736
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:31,519
pretty common tactic at one time

737
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,559
to set up academic international

738
00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:36,240
conferences

739
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:38,799
and that that was used by foreign

740
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:40,960
intelligence services as well as

741
00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:44,320
american intelligence services to try to

742
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,080
recruit spies and it put the leaders in

743
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:50,720
the field in physics communications

744
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:53,200
photography whatever the conference was

745
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:54,799
about

746
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,640
at events and there were a number of spy

747
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:01,200
techniques tried like in more recent

748
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:02,880
times it would be

749
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:04,399
uh here

750
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:07,679
here's my memory stick unload my project

751
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:10,080
into your laptop and then when you get

752
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:11,840
the memory stick back you've got

753
00:32:15,190 --> 00:32:12,960
everything

754
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,200
off of the people's laptop or you're

755
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:17,279
planning spyware

756
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:19,679
and and this kind of thing and

757
00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:23,440
uh the conferences were an opportunity

758
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:27,840
for intelligence gathering and trying to

759
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:30,320
recruit spies so

760
00:32:41,509 --> 00:32:36,630
genre context

761
00:32:44,470 --> 00:32:41,519
we've long had a lot of people in the

762
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:44,480
defense community that take interest in

763
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:48,000
ufos and and that's understandable

764
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:51,120
uh you know martin marietta contractors

765
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:54,000
people like that have a history of being

766
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:56,480
interested in the topic and what's

767
00:33:00,950 --> 00:32:58,320
flying around

768
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:00,960
so i could potentially see and that was

769
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:03,120
the first thing that came to mind with

770
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:04,320
the the

771
00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:07,120
story about mr stanford that the

772
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:09,840
intelligence community had set up a

773
00:33:14,549 --> 00:33:13,279
conference to try to

774
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:14,559
see who

775
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:17,200
maybe is targeting these people that

776
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:19,440
have security clearances in a

777
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:23,200
professional capacity or any number of

778
00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:25,519
intelligence or counter intelligence

779
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:27,039
opportunities

780
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:30,799
as a matter of fact in my book i

781
00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:34,240
uh discovered that um

782
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:36,559
dr donald menzel

783
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:43,269
phd worked with

784
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:45,840
the intelligence community spent his

785
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:48,399
life basically under surveillance

786
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:49,440
because

787
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:54,000
of the classified projects he worked on

788
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,080
after some 30 years of fbi memos about

789
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,480
making sure that this guy

790
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:03,840
is not reporting to russia isn't in bed

791
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:06,960
with china or anything like that

792
00:34:12,950 --> 00:34:10,560
i found memos that they uh

793
00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:12,960
the washington field of or the boston

794
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:16,639
field office for the fbi was requesting

795
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:20,000
from director hoover permission to groom

796
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,320
dr manziel as a an informant or counter

797
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:27,359
agent because he was still at that point

798
00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:30,079
in his career traveling to china and

799
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:32,879
going to international conferences

800
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:37,440
so it it's really hard to separate

801
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:41,280
uh the intelligence aspects from the ufo

802
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:43,040
steeple chase

803
00:34:47,230 --> 00:34:44,079
and

804
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:47,240
it's just something that most people

805
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:49,520
understandably don't even take into

806
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:51,119
consideration

807
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:53,359
when they're just heading off to

808
00:34:58,950 --> 00:34:56,879
a mufon meeting or an scu meeting and

809
00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:58,960
they want to hear about

810
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:02,000
what's the latest ufo buzz what's been

811
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:03,440
going on

812
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:04,400
and

813
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:07,760
those of us like me who are not in that

814
00:35:13,109 --> 00:35:10,720
line of work have not ever been employed

815
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:13,119
in the intelligence community

816
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:16,480
it it's really a whole uh

817
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:18,640
different way of looking at things to

818
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:20,560
start seeing it through that kind of

819
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:22,079
lens

820
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:24,480
i remember again i just brought up stan

821
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:25,760
friedman a little while ago and i

822
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:28,000
remember one of the times i spoke with

823
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:31,440
him he was talking about dr manziel from

824
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,320
the harvard harvard astronomy uh i

825
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:37,200
believe that's right and that he

826
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:39,280
figured out in a roundabout way that he

827
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,280
did have a clearance

828
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:43,760
a security clearance and was involved in

829
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:44,800
something

830
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:46,160
so uh

831
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:48,400
that's kind of a interesting tie-in you

832
00:35:53,109 --> 00:35:50,880
know basically to it

833
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:53,119
yes it is um

834
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:54,160
uh

835
00:35:59,190 --> 00:35:57,200
my research indicates that dr manziel

836
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:59,200
was involved

837
00:36:01,390 --> 00:36:00,079
in

838
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:01,400
some

839
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:06,640
applications of astronomy to spying and

840
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:07,680
code

841
00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:14,560
and it had to do with work he was doing

842
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:17,599
about the most advantageous time

843
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:20,800
to send and intercept messages

844
00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:24,960
based on atmospheric conditions and uh

845
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:27,839
that was just one of the things he did

846
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:29,440
and uh

847
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:33,359
i also found some interesting archives

848
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:36,240
where he exchanged letters with

849
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:40,560
uh ci director cia director hillen coder

850
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:45,119
who also served ironically as the nycap

851
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:48,560
chairman of the board for a few years

852
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:51,839
and uh they had a

853
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,720
debate about ufos and it became apparent

854
00:37:03,270 --> 00:36:58,800
in these letters that

855
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:03,280
helen coder was telling menzel one thing

856
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:07,599
and then he would tell nycap director

857
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:11,280
donald kehoe another thing and so i

858
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:14,320
found that interesting that helen coder

859
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,560
seemed to be kind of talking out of both

860
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:18,640
sides of his mouth about what his

861
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:25,200
position on ufos was and also um menzel

862
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:26,640
was

863
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:30,160
uh purported to be one of the majestic

864
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:34,880
12 the mj 12 as was hill and coder and

865
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:37,440
the letters between the two certainly

866
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:40,000
put that to bed that if the two of them

867
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:41,760
were aware of any

868
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:44,560
uh flying saucer retrievals they were

869
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,800
sure playing the long game in their

870
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:48,480
letters so that

871
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:51,760
60 years later when we read them we will

872
00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:53,520
think that they didn't know anything

873
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,280
about flying saucers

874
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,000
interesting wow uh kehoe

875
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:01,920
uh what an interesting

876
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,880
character he was uh wasn't he and he was

877
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:06,480
in the navy was it i'm trying to

878
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:09,200
remember what branch i believe i believe

879
00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:13,440
marines um and he was a pilot

880
00:38:17,950 --> 00:38:16,480
and he was an interesting character he

881
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:17,960
he wrote

882
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:22,560
extensively for pulp magazines before

883
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,000
he got involved with nycap and

884
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:28,800
uh had attracted the attention of the

885
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:32,480
fbi um some 20 years

886
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,599
prior to his nycap involvement in the

887
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:37,440
1950s

888
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:41,359
so as early as i think like 1935

889
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:44,560
uh he he was attracting

890
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:46,560
attention about

891
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:49,200
something or other i tried to

892
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:51,680
foil you that and find out more and they

893
00:38:57,990 --> 00:38:54,640
were unable to locate the records but

894
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:58,000
the fbi was able to give me documents

895
00:39:01,430 --> 00:39:00,480
that demonstrate that

896
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:01,440
um

897
00:39:07,589 --> 00:39:04,480
director hoover and his staff did not

898
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:07,599
think highly of kehoe's writing about

899
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:09,359
the fbi

900
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:11,200
and felt that

901
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:14,720
uh things that kehoe was

902
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:17,680
promoting were irresponsible like at one

903
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:20,240
point he had written that uh

904
00:39:25,990 --> 00:39:22,880
i think he wrote that the

905
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:26,000
nazis had a plan to take over the

906
00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:28,240
merchant marines or something to that

907
00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:30,960
effect and that the fbi was aware of the

908
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:32,000
plan

909
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:34,000
and of course that's the kind of thing

910
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:35,200
that would get

911
00:39:40,829 --> 00:39:37,520
hoover's attention and that would

912
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:40,839
certainly get on his bad side

913
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,839
hmm but i thought he was uh i thought he

914
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:45,599
was an advocate

915
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:48,720
you know he was really uh pushing

916
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:51,599
for you know i mean like people do today

917
00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:54,400
you know let's let's talk about this and

918
00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:56,480
you know so that's another reason he was

919
00:40:02,710 --> 00:39:59,920
probably looked on you know down upon

920
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:02,720
and i believe there's a mike wallace or

921
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:04,640
some and i'm trying to remember a great

922
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:06,960
interview with him that you can find

923
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:09,839
right have you ever that's correct kehoe

924
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:12,720
was definitely what we today would call

925
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:15,280
a disclosure advocate

926
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:16,560
he

927
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:20,720
very much believed in a ufo presence and

928
00:40:25,870 --> 00:40:23,599
thought that it was and

929
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:25,880
i thought that ufos represented

930
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:29,040
interplanetary spacecraft

931
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:32,319
one of my criticisms of nycap was that

932
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:35,119
they promoted themselves

933
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:38,560
as a scientific research organization

934
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:42,319
and in many aspects they were

935
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:45,599
but they also used it as somewhat of a

936
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:49,760
facade to try to deflect criticism

937
00:40:55,589 --> 00:40:52,400
and they sent out a lot of things that

938
00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:55,599
that would not be a lot of material and

939
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:56,960
literature

940
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:59,200
that would not and should not be

941
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:00,560
considered

942
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:05,280
uh in line with by definition scientific

943
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:07,200
investigation

944
00:41:10,069 --> 00:41:08,560
and

945
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:10,079
kehoe

946
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:12,480
at least outwardly and i tend to think

947
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:14,800
this is correct

948
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:18,160
became convinced that

949
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,319
the fbi the cia the air force

950
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:24,720
were hiding its

951
00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:27,440
their knowledge of an extraterrestrial

952
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:28,800
presence

953
00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:33,119
and he felt like the key to getting this

954
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:36,000
proof and this knowledge was through

955
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:39,280
people leaking documents and

956
00:41:45,190 --> 00:41:42,480
through congressional hearings

957
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:45,200
much like we're seeing today there are a

958
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:49,040
lot of parallels between the nycap saga

959
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:52,240
of the 1960s and today

960
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:53,760
and

961
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:57,119
kehoe essentially became a lobbyist

962
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:59,440
whether he may have considered himself

963
00:42:04,630 --> 00:42:00,880
that or not

964
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:04,640
and nycap successfully got

965
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:06,800
congressional hearings

966
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,280
that didn't turn out as they had hoped

967
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:11,760
they would and and there's a whole you

968
00:42:15,589 --> 00:42:12,960
know

969
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:15,599
list of different opinions on how and

970
00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:18,400
why that happened that the the bottom

971
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:20,960
line is people that want to believe are

972
00:42:28,470 --> 00:42:24,400
always going to play the cover-up card

973
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:28,480
and those of us that that

974
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,520
might be a bit more even-handed or

975
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:33,040
skeptical

976
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:36,640
are going to say well maybe that's so

977
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:39,119
but it hasn't been proven

978
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,800
and if there is proof somewhere it it

979
00:42:45,589 --> 00:42:44,480
hasn't come out

980
00:42:49,109 --> 00:42:45,599
and

981
00:42:53,109 --> 00:42:49,119
pretty much every conceivable

982
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:53,119
attempt has been made by a politician

983
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:54,319
and

984
00:43:00,309 --> 00:42:57,280
a disclosure activist

985
00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:00,319
military intelligence people

986
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:02,400
all of the things that we see happening

987
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:08,000
today happen in spades with nycap that

988
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:10,640
directors of

989
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:13,040
intelligence agencies

990
00:43:19,349 --> 00:43:16,960
career intelligence officers cia

991
00:43:21,589 --> 00:43:19,359
officers were going on the record

992
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:21,599
talking about

993
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:24,960
their belief about flying saucers

994
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:26,480
and

995
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:28,960
were some of that sincere

996
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:32,000
i would think so maybe most of it i

997
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:34,400
don't think all of it was i i think

998
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:37,680
there were there were mixed agendas

999
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:39,280
and uh

1000
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:41,440
i tend to think so for what i was

1001
00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:43,359
discussing earlier

1002
00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:45,760
reasons as i mentioned earlier

1003
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:46,640
that

1004
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:49,920
uh there was a lot of

1005
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:51,520
obstruction

1006
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:54,400
about the backgrounds of the people that

1007
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:56,800
incorporated nycap

1008
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:57,920
and

1009
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:00,720
the same way that we know now that

1010
00:44:06,230 --> 00:44:04,000
academic conferences can be used as an

1011
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,240
intelligence community tool

1012
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:08,480
we also know now

1013
00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:09,680
that

1014
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:13,560
nonprofit corporations 501 c 3

1015
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:17,200
corporations such as nycap

1016
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:18,160
were

1017
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:21,359
commonly used by intelligence agencies

1018
00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:23,760
to distribute funds

1019
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:27,359
and to covertly move money around and

1020
00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:30,240
uh i think that that might play into the

1021
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:33,040
story as well i i think when

1022
00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:34,880
nycap was

1023
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:38,000
first incorporated by intelligence

1024
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:40,079
community assets

1025
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:42,240
i think that they had some different

1026
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:45,680
ideas about where it might go

1027
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:48,640
and then that's back to how we were

1028
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:49,680
saying

1029
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,280
the the the particulars

1030
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:55,280
change from one

1031
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:57,599
instance to the next sometimes they

1032
00:45:02,150 --> 00:45:00,000
might be looking for leaks

1033
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,160
sometimes they might be doing counter

1034
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:04,960
intelligence and trying to find out

1035
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:06,319
what

1036
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:08,880
foreign adversaries are interested in

1037
00:45:14,309 --> 00:45:12,480
making connections with these leaks

1038
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:14,319
sometimes they might be planning

1039
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:17,440
disinformation about

1040
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:20,800
uh fabricated weapon systems that don't

1041
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,079
really exist like you might be aware or

1042
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:26,400
your audience might be aware that james

1043
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:29,200
carrion has done some good work

1044
00:45:32,349 --> 00:45:31,680
and uncovered

1045
00:45:38,589 --> 00:45:32,359
the

1046
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:38,599
late 1940s that was

1047
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:41,599
misrepresented to the press to be

1048
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:44,960
an airborne weapon

1049
00:45:51,910 --> 00:45:48,800
as powerful as the atomic bomb and

1050
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:51,920
uh carry on found in his research that

1051
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:54,079
in actuality had been

1052
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:56,079
it had been shelved and

1053
00:46:02,069 --> 00:45:58,960
uh dissolved like a year before it was

1054
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:02,079
being misrepresented to the press and i

1055
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:04,400
i just think you know there is

1056
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:06,800
pick a card any card you know there's

1057
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,480
just there's at least 52 reasons of why

1058
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:12,480
the intelligence community might be

1059
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:15,440
interested in games like that from one

1060
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:18,400
specific instance to the next

1061
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:21,839
now uh colonel or retired colonel joseph

1062
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:23,040
bryan

1063
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:24,240
iii

1064
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:26,960
he was a bit was he a bit controversial

1065
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:28,960
was because there was a rumor that he

1066
00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:31,040
was definitely involved in

1067
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:33,760
the cia or something right

1068
00:46:38,870 --> 00:46:35,599
yes uh

1069
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:38,880
colonel bryan was virtually certainly a

1070
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,079
cia officer as represented in the new

1071
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,640
york times and and other

1072
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,800
uh media outlets

1073
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:48,560
and

1074
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:50,800
a number of these people like like

1075
00:46:57,470 --> 00:46:53,599
joseph bryan is one

1076
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:57,480
has been of great interest to

1077
00:47:02,309 --> 00:46:59,440
historians

1078
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:02,319
over the years for reasons that have

1079
00:47:08,710 --> 00:47:05,520
nothing to do with ufos

1080
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:08,720
and that is because colonel bryan and

1081
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:11,760
some of the other nycat people

1082
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:15,040
played significant roles in american and

1083
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:17,520
global politics

1084
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:21,440
uh nicholas de roquefort is one that

1085
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:24,720
has been the subject of cia lawsuits to

1086
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:27,040
try to get records on him

1087
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:30,960
that was an original nycap organizer

1088
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:33,760
and like colonel bryan

1089
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:35,680
was a

1090
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:39,200
expert in psychological warfare

1091
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:43,040
and colonel bryan was one who was uh

1092
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:47,200
with nycap almost its entire

1093
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:48,720
life cycle

1094
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:50,960
and he sat on the board

1095
00:47:55,030 --> 00:47:53,200
and uh had

1096
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,040
connections in the intelligence

1097
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:57,520
community that that go back to the early

1098
00:48:01,990 --> 00:47:59,119
1950s

1099
00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:02,000
he reportedly worked in the opposite of

1100
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,960
policy coordination

1101
00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:07,040
and uh

1102
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,920
as i've said my general thesis is

1103
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:11,440
there's this group

1104
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:15,280
that we can put directly with nycat

1105
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:17,920
if we want to start letting me get manic

1106
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:20,400
and sticking pins all over the wall like

1107
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:22,800
that meme that goes around

1108
00:48:29,829 --> 00:48:26,319
this this office of policy coordination

1109
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:29,839
just had a whole crew of people that

1110
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:33,839
keep popping up during the 1950s

1111
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:35,440
in

1112
00:48:42,309 --> 00:48:38,800
the cia and the ufo community

1113
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:42,319
and had organizations linked to it that

1114
00:48:46,829 --> 00:48:43,760
were gathering

1115
00:48:51,150 --> 00:48:46,839
information for it and acting as assets

1116
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:51,160
abroad that were directly involved in

1117
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:54,000
incorporating and initially operating

1118
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:56,079
nycap

1119
00:49:01,430 --> 00:49:00,079
i'm personally skeptical of the mj12 on

1120
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:01,440
papers

1121
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:04,880
and also the one signed by eisenhower

1122
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,720
um because that's a

1123
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:08,800
that signature i mean it

1124
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:11,040
it just i mean it's his signature but it

1125
00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:13,440
could have so easily been floated on a

1126
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:15,280
copy which that is it's not a it's not

1127
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:18,000
an original but anyway being skeptical

1128
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:19,760
of all that and also we can talk a

1129
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:21,839
little bit about bill moore

1130
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:24,400
um but do you think there was actually

1131
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:27,760
some type of organization like mj 12

1132
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,280
headed by these people like um

1133
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:33,920
menzel and people like that

1134
00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:37,520
in the spirit of the question no i i do

1135
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:39,440
not um

1136
00:49:43,349 --> 00:49:41,440
were there meetings were there

1137
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:43,359
discussions

1138
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,160
could you really try to take a square

1139
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:48,960
peg and pound it into a round hole

1140
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:52,880
somewhere or other probably maybe

1141
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:53,760
but

1142
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:55,839
in the spirit of your question do i

1143
00:49:59,349 --> 00:49:58,480
think there was something resembling

1144
00:50:02,150 --> 00:49:59,359
an

1145
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:02,160
elite task force that

1146
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:04,240
uh

1147
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:05,599
that that

1148
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:09,680
retrieved crashed alien spacecraft

1149
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:12,319
i i just you know would have no reason

1150
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:15,359
to believe that without further

1151
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:17,760
documentation

1152
00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:19,359
right and

1153
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:21,680
when this um

1154
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:25,040
when this came out going back to

1155
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:26,640
the papers when they came out there were

1156
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:28,800
so many people that were really thinking

1157
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,160
thinking it was

1158
00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:32,480
you know that's the smoking gun you know

1159
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:33,520
this is

1160
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:39,040
um you know in recent years or

1161
00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:42,400
the last year or year or two i would say

1162
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:45,359
we have the wilson document have you

1163
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,119
looked into that i mean i personally

1164
00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:49,440
think that's kind of along the same line

1165
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:51,760
um you know supposedly eric davis was

1166
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:54,240
involved but he won't say whether he was

1167
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:57,119
or not and it took place in las vegas

1168
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:59,839
and um you know it's another very

1169
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:01,040
similar

1170
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,800
it seems like another

1171
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:04,640
similar type of situation have you

1172
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:06,319
looked into that at all

1173
00:51:13,589 --> 00:51:10,720
i have um the the outskirts of it i

1174
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:13,599
haven't done a deep dive and it's the

1175
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,800
very type of circumstance like i touched

1176
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:18,400
on earlier

1177
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:19,520
that

1178
00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:23,040
i i got to where i lost interest

1179
00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:24,240
and

1180
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:26,319
uh

1181
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:29,040
all of these

1182
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:33,440
narratives that rely on trusting someone

1183
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:36,480
about what they say they saw or what

1184
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:39,280
they say someone told them

1185
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:40,319
and

1186
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:43,440
uh like like i said i used to go to

1187
00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:46,800
conferences and i would uh talk to and

1188
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:49,040
interview some of the intelligence

1189
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:50,720
community members

1190
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:53,920
and i learned some things from it but

1191
00:52:00,470 --> 00:51:57,440
one of those things i learned was

1192
00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:00,480
there there's never a time coming that

1193
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:02,720
they're just gonna say well you ask the

1194
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:04,960
question in the right way let me get out

1195
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:07,200
my briefcase and i have those documents

1196
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:08,880
right here to give you

1197
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:11,680
is just not coming like like what can

1198
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:14,160
anyone possibly say

1199
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:16,319
that would matter you know like if

1200
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:18,960
colonel john alexander told me

1201
00:52:24,309 --> 00:52:21,440
unequivocally i saw this that and the

1202
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:24,319
other and it exists well all i've got is

1203
00:52:30,390 --> 00:52:27,359
a statement what difference does it make

1204
00:52:31,829 --> 00:52:30,400
so we have to get the documents and we

1205
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:31,839
have to get

1206
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:34,160
the supporting evidence that is

1207
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:37,040
available for public review

1208
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:40,160
and that qualified scientists

1209
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:41,040
put

1210
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:42,880
a pencil to it

1211
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:45,440
and it passes peer review

1212
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:48,160
and it's not under uh

1213
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:49,680
some

1214
00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:56,000
phds like to wink and say i can't talk

1215
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:58,880
about that i'm just not even interested

1216
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:00,720
anymore

1217
00:53:06,150 --> 00:53:03,119
and i know we're kind of talking about

1218
00:53:09,109 --> 00:53:06,160
these subjects and this has some revel

1219
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:09,119
uh relevance to it but bill moore he

1220
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:10,240
came out

1221
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:12,160
you know during her he basically came

1222
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:14,160
out said that he was working was it for

1223
00:53:17,829 --> 00:53:16,319
the cia who is he was working for some

1224
00:53:20,470 --> 00:53:17,839
type of intelligence

1225
00:53:24,549 --> 00:53:20,480
uh he i think he believed them to be

1226
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:24,559
connected to the cia and that the

1227
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:27,200
air force the air force office of

1228
00:53:32,309 --> 00:53:29,280
special investigations

1229
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:32,319
that plays pretty heavily into the nycap

1230
00:53:35,270 --> 00:53:34,240
saga as well

1231
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:35,280
and

1232
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,280
moore believed that if he played ball

1233
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:41,280
and put some

1234
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:44,880
stories into the ufo community

1235
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:48,720
as he was given to put

1236
00:53:54,069 --> 00:53:51,920
that then he would get the

1237
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:54,079
the the goodies that he would they'd

1238
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,240
dance with him and reward him with the

1239
00:53:59,910 --> 00:53:58,800
kind of information he wanted

1240
00:54:03,270 --> 00:53:59,920
and

1241
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:03,280
eventually he he decided the reward

1242
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:06,160
wasn't coming and he came clean with the

1243
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:08,880
whole story that he had been acting as

1244
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:10,960
what he believed to be

1245
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:14,000
a disinformation mouthpiece for the

1246
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:16,559
intelligence community

1247
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:17,520
and

1248
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:20,160
so then we're left

1249
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:21,280
with

1250
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:23,520
which story do you want to believe you

1251
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:25,760
want to believe the one that he's saying

1252
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:26,640
he

1253
00:54:36,829 --> 00:54:34,559
uh

1254
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:36,839
come to jesus moment and day of

1255
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,799
reckoning or

1256
00:54:42,630 --> 00:54:40,000
uh

1257
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:42,640
you know it's just tough when when

1258
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:45,359
someone says i'm a liar and i'm being

1259
00:54:50,470 --> 00:54:48,799
honest but now listen to this

1260
00:54:54,150 --> 00:54:50,480
and uh

1261
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:54,160
i i tend to think moore's story is is

1262
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:57,359
corroborated enough with the

1263
00:55:02,870 --> 00:54:59,760
the paul benowitz affair and things like

1264
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:02,880
that that it it looks pretty solid there

1265
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:06,480
was certainly shenanigans going on it's

1266
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:08,640
certainly a concerning story with

1267
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:11,119
richard doty and the whole chain of

1268
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:12,799
events

1269
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:14,720
but uh

1270
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:17,599
again we're just left with people made a

1271
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:21,119
lot of statements about stuff and as my

1272
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:23,920
uh my buddy tim benall says

1273
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:27,119
show me the alien just show me the alien

1274
00:55:30,789 --> 00:55:27,890
you know

1275
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:30,799
[Laughter]

1276
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:32,720
pretty funny uh

1277
00:55:37,430 --> 00:55:35,359
yep so someone put in here let's see

1278
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:37,440
what do you think about the halt memo

1279
00:55:42,230 --> 00:55:39,760
have you i mean that's

1280
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:42,240
uh charles halt wrote about rendelsham

1281
00:55:46,150 --> 00:55:43,920
force

1282
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:46,160
um you know he basically i think he

1283
00:55:50,069 --> 00:55:48,640
actually put in the wrong date something

1284
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:50,079
like i know something like that had to

1285
00:55:54,549 --> 00:55:52,000
do with you know radar uh they were

1286
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:54,559
looking into it but but basically this

1287
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:56,000
was uh

1288
00:56:01,109 --> 00:55:59,119
he uh supposedly happened early morning

1289
00:56:03,670 --> 00:56:01,119
on the 27th of december

1290
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:03,680
1980 and he talks about

1291
00:56:09,589 --> 00:56:06,240
you know the security seeing this uh

1292
00:56:11,109 --> 00:56:09,599
triangle-shaped ufo blah blah blah

1293
00:56:12,630 --> 00:56:11,119
so someone just didn't chat just wanted

1294
00:56:14,630 --> 00:56:12,640
to know what you thought about that memo

1295
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:14,640
have you ever looked at it

1296
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:18,160
my general opinion on rendelsham is that

1297
00:56:21,990 --> 00:56:21,200
it's a fascinating case

1298
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:22,000
i

1299
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:31,680
enough

1300
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:35,359
talented uh competent people have

1301
00:56:42,549 --> 00:56:39,040
and my general opinion on it is

1302
00:56:45,589 --> 00:56:42,559
that it's another in a long line of

1303
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:45,599
fantastic ufo stories that happen to

1304
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:48,799
center around a bunch of military people

1305
00:56:54,390 --> 00:56:51,680
and so so we can take that to mean

1306
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:54,400
whatever we want it to mean

1307
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:57,119
and uh

1308
00:57:01,829 --> 00:56:59,760
again we have a story that something

1309
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:01,839
happened and i think that's just kind of

1310
00:57:06,309 --> 00:57:04,160
the long and the short of it

1311
00:57:08,549 --> 00:57:06,319
yeah yeah it's interesting i've talked

1312
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:08,559
to a number of people involved and

1313
00:57:13,270 --> 00:57:11,200
it is uh you know it's kind of

1314
00:57:16,069 --> 00:57:13,280
convoluted with all you know the

1315
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,079
different witnesses that 1980 goes back

1316
00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:17,760
a long time now

1317
00:57:23,589 --> 00:57:20,480
and your memory is not

1318
00:57:25,829 --> 00:57:23,599
everyone's memory falters a little as

1319
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:25,839
they rethink and retell the stories over

1320
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:28,400
the years so yeah as time the further

1321
00:57:33,190 --> 00:57:30,160
away we get from any of these things you

1322
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:33,200
know talking about roswell way back that

1323
00:57:37,829 --> 00:57:36,079
that's so long ago um you know i don't

1324
00:57:39,109 --> 00:57:37,839
know if we'll ever know exactly what

1325
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,119
happened

1326
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:41,119
there there's there's

1327
00:57:46,069 --> 00:57:43,520
you know uh often people will say why do

1328
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:46,079
you even talk about that case

1329
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:48,880
uh you know as if nothing

1330
00:57:54,710 --> 00:57:51,440
you know knew could ever come about and

1331
00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:54,720
most likely it won't at this point

1332
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:57,920
yeah yeah i i'm definitely on the same

1333
00:58:02,309 --> 00:57:59,839
page with you there

1334
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:02,319
and in fact i think with the whole

1335
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:04,160
memory thing

1336
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:07,359
um one of the criticisms i would make of

1337
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:09,599
the ufo scene

1338
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:12,079
is that

1339
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:15,280
we tend to skip the basics like we were

1340
00:58:19,990 --> 00:58:17,119
saying about understanding the

1341
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,000
intelligence community and want to go

1342
00:58:24,789 --> 00:58:22,240
for the good stuff you know show me the

1343
00:58:25,829 --> 00:58:24,799
alien where's the flying saucer in this

1344
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:25,839
story

1345
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,799
um just just tell me you know what did

1346
00:58:31,829 --> 00:58:29,920
you see

1347
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,839
that kind of stuff

1348
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:33,440
when

1349
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:37,119
i was interested enough in this that

1350
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:39,119
i i

1351
00:58:44,069 --> 00:58:41,920
read arguably an inordinate amount of

1352
00:58:47,750 --> 00:58:44,079
material on

1353
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:47,760
the peripheral topics like memory

1354
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:51,200
and hypnosis as a memory retrieval tool

1355
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:53,119
and things like that

1356
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:54,240
and

1357
00:58:59,750 --> 00:58:56,720
uh you're you're absolutely just hitting

1358
00:59:04,069 --> 00:58:59,760
the nail on the head there martin that

1359
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:04,079
um i for instance had a ufo sighting

1360
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:05,920
many years ago

1361
00:59:11,430 --> 00:59:09,280
and from what i've read about memory

1362
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:11,440
i'm to the point where i like really

1363
00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:13,280
don't even want to talk about it with

1364
00:59:17,670 --> 00:59:15,599
people and stuff because i probably

1365
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:17,680
don't know what happened all right so

1366
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:19,520
now we're going to talk about it

1367
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:21,119
that's right

1368
00:59:28,309 --> 00:59:24,640
no you end up you end up with a memory

1369
00:59:30,069 --> 00:59:28,319
of telling the story that's exactly i've

1370
00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:30,079
been doing i've talked about this on

1371
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:32,640
this show a few times that i myself too

1372
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:35,920
have been looking into memory and you

1373
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:37,359
know you you

1374
00:59:40,870 --> 00:59:39,440
you're exactly right you start piecing

1375
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:40,880
back

1376
00:59:44,870 --> 00:59:43,119
what you each time you think of

1377
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:44,880
something you're rebuilding it in your

1378
00:59:48,789 --> 00:59:47,280
head you're rebuilding it in your mind

1379
00:59:50,870 --> 00:59:48,799
and you're rebuilding it from what you

1380
00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:50,880
remember the last time you told it

1381
00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:54,480
you know so it's uh it is it is uh very

1382
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:56,640
faltering you know i thought i had my

1383
01:00:02,309 --> 00:59:59,280
ufo sighting i've told on this this show

1384
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:02,319
many times it was not real exciting but

1385
01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:03,760
i'd like to think that i have it

1386
01:00:09,030 --> 01:00:06,160
accurately but you know perhaps i don't

1387
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:09,040
you know and uh i remember recently i

1388
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:12,400
was thinking was that 2006 or 2007 i

1389
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:13,280
wasn't

1390
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:16,480
you know so but i do uh honestly even

1391
01:00:19,349 --> 01:00:17,680
though you don't want to tell it i do

1392
01:00:22,390 --> 01:00:19,359
want to hear about your ufo story if you

1393
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:22,400
don't i i was a child in charlotte north

1394
01:00:25,670 --> 01:00:23,680
carolina

1395
01:00:28,950 --> 01:00:25,680
and i uh

1396
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:28,960
saw something that um

1397
01:00:33,910 --> 01:00:32,000
it it's hard to describe we might

1398
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:33,920
describe it as

1399
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:38,079
a v or protractor shaped that was

1400
01:00:42,710 --> 01:00:39,280
spinning

1401
01:00:44,630 --> 01:00:42,720
and so as an adult i think back it was

1402
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:44,640
night time

1403
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:47,599
i think back and then okay i guess maybe

1404
01:00:52,390 --> 01:00:50,240
the way lights were hitting an object

1405
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:52,400
made it look like

1406
01:00:56,950 --> 01:00:53,280
um

1407
01:00:58,950 --> 01:00:56,960
something spinning in that way uh trying

1408
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:58,960
to you know get my mind wrapped around

1409
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:00,799
what it might have been

1410
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:03,680
and uh at this point in my life have

1411
01:01:08,789 --> 01:01:06,000
just kind of come to

1412
01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:08,799
the realization i don't know and i'm

1413
01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:12,079
just okay with i don't know what i saw

1414
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:15,200
and that's just kind of how it has to be

1415
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:16,079
and

1416
01:01:20,710 --> 01:01:19,680
um the more we talk about these things

1417
01:01:23,670 --> 01:01:20,720
then

1418
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:23,680
the more people are entitled to want to

1419
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:26,640
ask questions and okay well

1420
01:01:32,069 --> 01:01:29,440
what where were you what was the date

1421
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,079
let's look at airplane traffic let's

1422
01:01:35,349 --> 01:01:34,240
look at weather forecast

1423
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:35,359
and

1424
01:01:42,230 --> 01:01:37,920
then you start having people trying to

1425
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:42,240
tell you what happened and uh

1426
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:44,799
it should come as no surprise it often

1427
01:01:50,870 --> 01:01:48,000
tends to be what they think happened to

1428
01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:50,880
them that they start telling you it's

1429
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:52,559
projected like

1430
01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:54,880
yeah is what you witnessed

1431
01:02:01,829 --> 01:01:58,559
and uh that's actually how i got

1432
01:02:04,829 --> 01:02:01,839
into a lot of the skeptical side of my

1433
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:06,349
was

1434
01:02:11,270 --> 01:02:10,319
experiencing that there can be such a

1435
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:11,280
uh

1436
01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:14,559
feeling of people pulling on each arm in

1437
01:02:21,510 --> 01:02:18,079
a different direction in the ufo genre

1438
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:21,520
to try to get you in the alien camp or

1439
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:24,319
the interdimensional camp or the mind

1440
01:02:28,950 --> 01:02:27,599
control camp or you know that what was

1441
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:28,960
it that happened

1442
01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:30,880
and you know and then there's people

1443
01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:33,280
that would say i don't know you you saw

1444
01:02:38,069 --> 01:02:35,520
a weather balloon with with lights

1445
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:38,079
bouncing off it how should i know

1446
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:40,079
and uh

1447
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:42,960
so kind of back to where we started i

1448
01:02:47,029 --> 01:02:45,359
really empathize with people and want to

1449
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:47,039
give them their space

1450
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:49,599
for their self-discovery

1451
01:02:56,549 --> 01:02:51,760
and at the same time

1452
01:02:59,029 --> 01:02:56,559
the the skeptics um have that right to

1453
01:03:01,510 --> 01:02:59,039
to to say i don't know if somebody's

1454
01:03:03,510 --> 01:03:01,520
jumping out here saying they've got

1455
01:03:05,069 --> 01:03:03,520
material from

1456
01:03:07,349 --> 01:03:05,079
a uh

1457
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:07,359
interplanetary or interdimensional

1458
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:08,880
spacecraft

1459
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:11,520
that they're doing tests on

1460
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,359
um

1461
01:03:18,549 --> 01:03:15,599
that requires a little more than just

1462
01:03:22,309 --> 01:03:18,559
you know anecdotal

1463
01:03:24,549 --> 01:03:22,319
personal stories you know

1464
01:03:27,270 --> 01:03:24,559
right so if you're just joining us live

1465
01:03:30,549 --> 01:03:27,280
now we're on with jack brewer and i did

1466
01:03:32,789 --> 01:03:30,559
want to announce that this is our 499th

1467
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:32,799
show so that means next week

1468
01:03:38,390 --> 01:03:35,280
is 500 and next week's going to be a

1469
01:03:40,950 --> 01:03:38,400
call-in show so i want everyone that's

1470
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:40,960
listening to this to get ready to call

1471
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:43,760
in next week and uh if we bill's

1472
01:03:47,670 --> 01:03:45,440
probably gonna help me out if we don't

1473
01:03:49,990 --> 01:03:47,680
if we have some dead space but uh get

1474
01:03:52,069 --> 01:03:50,000
your questions ready for next week it's

1475
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:52,079
a call-in show should be a lot of fun

1476
01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:54,720
speaking of that um in about 20 minutes

1477
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:56,640
we'll be opening up the phone lines if

1478
01:04:01,349 --> 01:03:59,920
you have any uh questions for our guests

1479
01:04:04,150 --> 01:04:01,359
uh this evening

1480
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:04,160
uh jack here's a question someone are

1481
01:04:07,109 --> 01:04:05,520
you even familiar with the term

1482
01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:07,119
hitchhiker effect

1483
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:10,880
i am familiar yeah so someone to know uh

1484
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:15,039
if you had anything like that um

1485
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:17,119
with your experience i guess uh a lot of

1486
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:19,839
people maintain that they are having

1487
01:04:25,750 --> 01:04:22,160
these things kind of follow them

1488
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:25,760
which is kind of interesting i um

1489
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:28,799
i think that kind of falls into a belief

1490
01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:30,960
system

1491
01:04:37,589 --> 01:04:32,880
personally i

1492
01:04:40,150 --> 01:04:37,599
do not think that i have some type of

1493
01:04:41,270 --> 01:04:40,160
phenomenon

1494
01:04:44,150 --> 01:04:41,280
um

1495
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:44,160
any supernatural phenomenon

1496
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:46,000
uh

1497
01:04:49,990 --> 01:04:47,760
in my life

1498
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:50,000
i would not want to

1499
01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:54,400
to debate people that believe they do if

1500
01:04:58,630 --> 01:04:55,599
that's

1501
01:05:01,829 --> 01:04:58,640
uh what what they want to go with far be

1502
01:05:06,230 --> 01:05:01,839
it from me to argue it as long as they

1503
01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:06,240
don't want to impose that belief on me

1504
01:05:11,589 --> 01:05:08,640
i i think we're really looking at like

1505
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:11,599
two different sets of circumstances here

1506
01:05:15,670 --> 01:05:14,240
martin and that

1507
01:05:18,309 --> 01:05:15,680
there's

1508
01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:18,319
hanging out with friends late night at

1509
01:05:22,870 --> 01:05:20,480
denny's and somebody tells you about

1510
01:05:25,829 --> 01:05:22,880
something that happened to them once and

1511
01:05:28,390 --> 01:05:25,839
you're giving them emotional support for

1512
01:05:31,589 --> 01:05:28,400
their belief system

1513
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:31,599
then there are people that want to take

1514
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:33,520
podiums at

1515
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:37,200
quote conferences unquote and present

1516
01:05:45,430 --> 01:05:41,440
their material as researchers

1517
01:05:47,510 --> 01:05:45,440
and then we as researchers or an

1518
01:05:51,510 --> 01:05:47,520
interested public

1519
01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:51,520
have the right and the responsibility

1520
01:05:56,069 --> 01:05:53,760
to fact check it

1521
01:05:59,430 --> 01:05:56,079
and

1522
01:06:02,150 --> 01:05:59,440
hold them responsible for the assertions

1523
01:06:02,950 --> 01:06:02,160
they make if they're

1524
01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:02,960
uh

1525
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:07,280
abs assertions do not hold up to the

1526
01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:09,359
evidence that like if the evidence they

1527
01:06:13,109 --> 01:06:12,400
presented is not in proportion

1528
01:06:14,470 --> 01:06:13,119
to

1529
01:06:17,750 --> 01:06:14,480
uh

1530
01:06:21,029 --> 01:06:17,760
the and and in my opinion the hitchhiker

1531
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:21,039
effect falls into that category

1532
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:24,880
i understand it's long been a

1533
01:06:31,029 --> 01:06:27,920
part of the ufo lore the multiple

1534
01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:31,039
abductions in families the multiple

1535
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:32,960
experiences

1536
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:34,720
and

1537
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:37,359
um i wouldn't argue

1538
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:39,920
if someone has that belief in a

1539
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:42,480
religious or spiritual or personal

1540
01:06:47,430 --> 01:06:44,400
context

1541
01:06:50,710 --> 01:06:47,440
but if you want to present it to me as a

1542
01:06:52,309 --> 01:06:50,720
researcher happening in an objective

1543
01:06:53,109 --> 01:06:52,319
reality

1544
01:06:54,309 --> 01:06:53,119
i

1545
01:06:56,470 --> 01:06:54,319
would

1546
01:06:58,950 --> 01:06:56,480
uh want to see

1547
01:07:04,630 --> 01:07:02,390
the specific data that shows cause and

1548
01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:04,640
effect there i don't think i'm i'm

1549
01:07:09,510 --> 01:07:06,720
certain has not been

1550
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:09,520
established yeah it seems like that

1551
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:11,440
would be kind of a nightmare you know i

1552
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:13,599
mean if you think about it uh you know i

1553
01:07:17,430 --> 01:07:16,079
mean just a terrible thing to

1554
01:07:20,150 --> 01:07:17,440
like think you're done with something

1555
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:20,160
and then something keeps happening

1556
01:07:25,430 --> 01:07:23,680
and it gets really existential if we let

1557
01:07:27,510 --> 01:07:25,440
it you know like

1558
01:07:30,789 --> 01:07:27,520
um

1559
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:30,799
i got a phone call i got in my car i

1560
01:07:36,309 --> 01:07:33,440
drove to the grocery store i got another

1561
01:07:39,029 --> 01:07:36,319
phone call well they're not related in

1562
01:07:42,710 --> 01:07:39,039
the least and in the grand scheme of

1563
01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:42,720
things everything's directly related and

1564
01:07:48,630 --> 01:07:45,839
is on a cause and effect timeline

1565
01:07:51,910 --> 01:07:48,640
so you know how how existential and

1566
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:51,920
philosophical do we want to get or like

1567
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:54,880
i say are we going to stick to

1568
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:56,400
in a

1569
01:08:02,549 --> 01:07:59,280
research recognized by the professional

1570
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:02,559
research community and those kinds of

1571
01:08:09,190 --> 01:08:06,400
standards of evidence can you show me

1572
01:08:10,549 --> 01:08:09,200
the the chain of cause and effect that

1573
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:10,559
these circumstances

1574
01:08:15,029 --> 01:08:13,520
are directly related

1575
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:15,039
right um

1576
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:18,000
someone wants this is a

1577
01:08:23,030 --> 01:08:21,440
question that i often ask myself is just

1578
01:08:25,829 --> 01:08:23,040
for an opinion

1579
01:08:27,910 --> 01:08:25,839
and that is do you believe that it's

1580
01:08:31,030 --> 01:08:27,920
probably some of these ufos are

1581
01:08:33,030 --> 01:08:31,040
otherworldly devices i ask

1582
01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:33,040
i ask in general that question like what

1583
01:08:37,349 --> 01:08:35,440
do you think that people might be seeing

1584
01:08:39,829 --> 01:08:37,359
if it's not explainable

1585
01:08:42,550 --> 01:08:39,839
in our terms that if it's not

1586
01:08:46,309 --> 01:08:42,560
something that we can explain from here

1587
01:08:48,229 --> 01:08:46,319
um i i'm smiling because i uh my first

1588
01:08:51,910 --> 01:08:48,239
thought was just you know

1589
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:51,920
well my opinion no i i don't think so

1590
01:08:56,550 --> 01:08:53,759
and then i thought and then the host

1591
01:08:58,870 --> 01:08:56,560
will go well thanks for joining us we'll

1592
01:09:01,749 --> 01:08:58,880
we'll move along to somebody else that

1593
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:01,759
like david letterman said once maybe i

1594
01:09:07,269 --> 01:09:04,159
can come over to your house and chew gum

1595
01:09:08,229 --> 01:09:07,279
sometime i remember he said that to uh

1596
01:09:17,829 --> 01:09:08,239
uh

1597
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:17,839
joaquin yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm in an

1598
01:09:22,390 --> 01:09:20,400
interview i remember yeah that was

1599
01:09:25,669 --> 01:09:22,400
bizarre yeah so

1600
01:09:28,390 --> 01:09:25,679
no i don't think it it's probable

1601
01:09:31,749 --> 01:09:28,400
i think there's a lot of explanations

1602
01:09:32,829 --> 01:09:31,759
for ufos i think there's a whole lot of

1603
01:09:37,550 --> 01:09:32,839
them

1604
01:09:39,950 --> 01:09:37,560
um exotic classified aircraft

1605
01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:39,960
misidentifications of

1606
01:09:44,709 --> 01:09:42,799
identifiable flying objects

1607
01:09:48,470 --> 01:09:44,719
weather phenomena

1608
01:09:50,669 --> 01:09:48,480
uh just general tricks on your eyes

1609
01:09:54,149 --> 01:09:50,679
are some of them

1610
01:09:57,030 --> 01:09:54,159
representations of some kind of yet to

1611
01:09:59,990 --> 01:09:57,040
be better understood phenomena

1612
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,000
well the brown mountain lights the work

1613
01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:02,159
being done in hess dolan

1614
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:03,120
uh

1615
01:10:09,350 --> 01:10:07,120
might lead us to think that is the case

1616
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:09,360
i wouldn't rule it out i don't think

1617
01:10:14,550 --> 01:10:11,600
that's what critical thinking and

1618
01:10:18,790 --> 01:10:14,560
healthy skepticism is about

1619
01:10:19,910 --> 01:10:18,800
but i think it's a very small percentage

1620
01:10:23,110 --> 01:10:19,920
of

1621
01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:23,120
the the cases that that

1622
01:10:27,110 --> 01:10:25,440
we're looking at and

1623
01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:27,120
uh

1624
01:10:32,470 --> 01:10:29,600
that's just my opinion

1625
01:10:34,709 --> 01:10:32,480
well you know there are some cases

1626
01:10:36,550 --> 01:10:34,719
and i even brought this up last week you

1627
01:10:39,669 --> 01:10:36,560
know the ariel school

1628
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:39,679
incident in south africa to me that's an

1629
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:42,159
incredible case um then there's you know

1630
01:10:46,630 --> 01:10:44,880
the 2004 tic tac with military involved

1631
01:10:49,270 --> 01:10:46,640
once again military

1632
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:49,280
but with a lot of data with that that

1633
01:10:54,229 --> 01:10:52,000
is very hard to explain some people

1634
01:10:56,950 --> 01:10:54,239
claim that they think it may be

1635
01:10:59,270 --> 01:10:56,960
as you said something military but that

1636
01:11:02,630 --> 01:10:59,280
doesn't really fit in the realm of what

1637
01:11:04,390 --> 01:11:02,640
happened there so yeah i think there's

1638
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:04,400
i'm i'm never saying that i know what

1639
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:06,960
these things are and i tell people if

1640
01:11:09,590 --> 01:11:07,920
they're

1641
01:11:11,110 --> 01:11:09,600
interested in

1642
01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:11,120
um

1643
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:12,880
you know what paying attention to the

1644
01:11:17,830 --> 01:11:14,640
subject if someone says they know what

1645
01:11:20,470 --> 01:11:17,840
it is then run you know because uh i

1646
01:11:22,709 --> 01:11:20,480
don't think anyone has the real answer

1647
01:11:24,709 --> 01:11:22,719
you know to what it to what it really is

1648
01:11:27,110 --> 01:11:24,719
at this point for all of them some of

1649
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:27,120
them i'm glad when things can get

1650
01:11:31,510 --> 01:11:29,920
explained as to what they are myself

1651
01:11:34,310 --> 01:11:31,520
when someone figures it out i mean i

1652
01:11:35,990 --> 01:11:34,320
myself i brought this up recently i'll

1653
01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:36,000
just put it up as just a quick little

1654
01:11:39,510 --> 01:11:38,560
clip but um i thought i was seeing a ufo

1655
01:11:42,310 --> 01:11:39,520
right here i'm going to play it right

1656
01:11:46,870 --> 01:11:44,870
and what it really is

1657
01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:46,880
if you're looking it's hard to see this

1658
01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:49,440
it looks like a disc here

1659
01:11:55,750 --> 01:11:51,760
and then all of a sudden you see it goes

1660
01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:55,760
sideways then you see two

1661
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:57,520
and it kind of disappears and they and

1662
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:59,040
they both come back

1663
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:00,480
and what it was

1664
01:12:05,030 --> 01:12:03,199
as it got closer it was an airplane

1665
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:05,040
that had a banner behind it and it was

1666
01:12:07,350 --> 01:12:06,480
turning around

1667
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:07,360
and i

1668
01:12:14,790 --> 01:12:12,320
for sure i was seeing myself a ufo right

1669
01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:14,800
off the bat as soon as i got to where i

1670
01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:18,400
was i was like oh my god uh but uh yeah

1671
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:20,320
it's uh i like when those things can be

1672
01:12:25,430 --> 01:12:22,560
explained i mean it would be really

1673
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:25,440
amazing if it was unexplainable but

1674
01:12:30,870 --> 01:12:27,120
that one you know

1675
01:12:34,790 --> 01:12:30,880
yes the banner airplanes

1676
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:34,800
are are a big one um i've seen clips

1677
01:12:39,350 --> 01:12:37,760
over the years that looked absolutely

1678
01:12:41,430 --> 01:12:39,360
fascinating

1679
01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:41,440
and then they were able to correlate it

1680
01:12:46,870 --> 01:12:44,400
with a flight pattern of a a plane with

1681
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:46,880
a banner and then when you look at it

1682
01:12:51,990 --> 01:12:48,960
when you're told what it is you can kind

1683
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:52,000
of see it yeah but but yeah

1684
01:12:57,430 --> 01:12:55,760
um i had a similar experience once

1685
01:13:01,189 --> 01:12:57,440
uh with

1686
01:13:03,430 --> 01:13:01,199
you've heard that people mistake birds

1687
01:13:04,470 --> 01:13:03,440
for ufos yes

1688
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:04,480
and

1689
01:13:10,390 --> 01:13:07,120
i i remember they used to tell us that

1690
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:10,400
at the planetarium when we were kids

1691
01:13:15,510 --> 01:13:13,199
and i was like what kind of idiot you

1692
01:13:19,270 --> 01:13:15,520
know mistakes a goose for uh the

1693
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:19,280
mothership you know and uh yeah yeah

1694
01:13:24,870 --> 01:13:22,239
like oh i thought i saw a star cruiser

1695
01:13:26,790 --> 01:13:24,880
from another solar system my bad it's

1696
01:13:28,950 --> 01:13:26,800
just a dub you know

1697
01:13:33,110 --> 01:13:28,960
mother goose

1698
01:13:35,830 --> 01:13:33,120
yeah and then one night as they say

1699
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:35,840
i'm walking across the parking lot and

1700
01:13:40,709 --> 01:13:38,480
out of the corner of my eye i see

1701
01:13:43,830 --> 01:13:40,719
what for all the world

1702
01:13:45,030 --> 01:13:43,840
looks like a saucer-shaped

1703
01:13:48,310 --> 01:13:45,040
craft

1704
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:48,320
going at an incredible speed all the way

1705
01:13:53,189 --> 01:13:50,480
across the sky

1706
01:13:56,149 --> 01:13:53,199
and fortunately

1707
01:13:59,669 --> 01:13:56,159
at the angle i was standing i was able

1708
01:14:02,950 --> 01:13:59,679
to see for a brief instant

1709
01:14:05,430 --> 01:14:02,960
when the when it when this bird flew out

1710
01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:05,440
of the light that was reflecting on its

1711
01:14:11,270 --> 01:14:09,040
belly looking like a saucer shape i saw

1712
01:14:14,550 --> 01:14:11,280
for an instant as it flew through the

1713
01:14:18,390 --> 01:14:14,560
dark and then on out of sight

1714
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:18,400
and it was only you know maybe

1715
01:14:23,910 --> 01:14:21,440
60 70 feet off the ground

1716
01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:23,920
and because and i i actually thought

1717
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:26,800
it's kind of ironic i've spent so much

1718
01:14:34,070 --> 01:14:29,600
more time looking at

1719
01:14:37,430 --> 01:14:34,080
clips and photos of saucers that my mind

1720
01:14:40,310 --> 01:14:37,440
immediately goes to must be a saucer

1721
01:14:44,070 --> 01:14:40,320
eight miles high flying at an incredible

1722
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:44,080
rate of speed rather than a bird 75 feet

1723
01:14:49,189 --> 01:14:46,480
at the air you know headed home with

1724
01:14:50,630 --> 01:14:49,199
some dinner or whatever it was doing

1725
01:14:51,430 --> 01:14:50,640
and uh

1726
01:14:53,110 --> 01:14:51,440
it

1727
01:14:55,669 --> 01:14:53,120
yeah i mean

1728
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:55,679
who knows how many people like i was

1729
01:15:01,350 --> 01:14:57,520
saying you know whatever i saw when i

1730
01:15:04,310 --> 01:15:01,360
was a kid just becomes a lifelong quest

1731
01:15:05,910 --> 01:15:04,320
to find the answer to this mystery that

1732
01:15:09,510 --> 01:15:05,920
um

1733
01:15:11,910 --> 01:15:09,520
almost is like a karmic joke

1734
01:15:14,550 --> 01:15:11,920
you know a a

1735
01:15:18,070 --> 01:15:14,560
could could even be considered um a

1736
01:15:22,189 --> 01:15:18,080
cruel joke if it was just something

1737
01:15:24,390 --> 01:15:22,199
um mundane like that but again you know

1738
01:15:26,310 --> 01:15:24,400
existentialism and the grand scheme of

1739
01:15:29,830 --> 01:15:26,320
things if it helps us

1740
01:15:32,310 --> 01:15:29,840
with our own self-discovery well then

1741
01:15:34,229 --> 01:15:32,320
you know whatever it is that

1742
01:15:37,270 --> 01:15:34,239
does the trick i guess

1743
01:15:39,030 --> 01:15:37,280
right uh i was sent uh people a lot of

1744
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:39,040
people will send me their

1745
01:15:44,790 --> 01:15:42,000
ufo video clips not really the person to

1746
01:15:47,510 --> 01:15:44,800
send that to and uh i have a friend mark

1747
01:15:49,270 --> 01:15:47,520
d'antonio that is a person to send that

1748
01:15:50,950 --> 01:15:49,280
to but he's very busy you know people

1749
01:15:53,430 --> 01:15:50,960
send him things all the time but i do

1750
01:15:56,630 --> 01:15:53,440
get a lot of clips and recently i had

1751
01:16:00,229 --> 01:15:56,640
one sent to me and i figured out that it

1752
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:00,239
was a bird you know i mean and but the

1753
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:03,360
person did not really want to hear that

1754
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,400
you know and get seemed to get pretty

1755
01:16:10,790 --> 01:16:08,239
pretty upset at me

1756
01:16:13,669 --> 01:16:10,800
by um by calling it a bird but i could

1757
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:13,679
clearly see after i blew it up on my i

1758
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,520
have a big screen i blew it up you could

1759
01:16:18,790 --> 01:16:17,440
easily see that it was was a bird and it

1760
01:16:20,950 --> 01:16:18,800
was just the angle it was at you

1761
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:20,960
couldn't see the wings flapping

1762
01:16:25,430 --> 01:16:23,280
you know that's it's always about angles

1763
01:16:28,630 --> 01:16:25,440
and light reflection and a lot of times

1764
01:16:30,630 --> 01:16:28,640
you'll see birds at a very high altitude

1765
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:30,640
that are catching the sunlight from an

1766
01:16:35,830 --> 01:16:33,520
angle and they'll look like orbs

1767
01:16:37,590 --> 01:16:35,840
so there's a lot of times birds do look

1768
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:37,600
very mysterious and

1769
01:16:42,709 --> 01:16:41,040
um so yeah we all have to be uh

1770
01:16:46,310 --> 01:16:42,719
careful what we're looking at

1771
01:16:50,030 --> 01:16:46,320
yes and what you experienced is another

1772
01:16:53,590 --> 01:16:50,040
aspect the detrimental side of ufo

1773
01:16:54,870 --> 01:16:53,600
investigation and investigating

1774
01:16:57,669 --> 01:16:54,880
uh

1775
01:17:00,630 --> 01:16:57,679
reports of what we might call high

1776
01:17:02,630 --> 01:17:00,640
strangeness alien abduction for lack of

1777
01:17:05,110 --> 01:17:02,640
a better term

1778
01:17:08,550 --> 01:17:05,990
it

1779
01:17:09,750 --> 01:17:08,560
people often don't want

1780
01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:09,760
uh

1781
01:17:16,310 --> 01:17:13,040
to to hear what it is that that we might

1782
01:17:18,550 --> 01:17:16,320
as researchers actually think happened

1783
01:17:21,750 --> 01:17:18,560
and i think as

1784
01:17:24,149 --> 01:17:21,760
witnesses we have some responsibility

1785
01:17:25,189 --> 01:17:24,159
then like how i said i really don't want

1786
01:17:28,669 --> 01:17:25,199
to talk

1787
01:17:31,430 --> 01:17:28,679
a lot about my ufo sighting i have a

1788
01:17:35,510 --> 01:17:31,440
responsibility to decide

1789
01:17:38,350 --> 01:17:35,520
am i looking for emotional support or am

1790
01:17:40,790 --> 01:17:38,360
i looking for

1791
01:17:42,950 --> 01:17:40,800
investigative support

1792
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:42,960
what kind of support am i looking for

1793
01:17:47,550 --> 01:17:45,920
because they're completely different

1794
01:17:49,630 --> 01:17:47,560
and as

1795
01:17:52,390 --> 01:17:49,640
investigators we have the

1796
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:52,400
responsibilities to make clear what

1797
01:17:56,950 --> 01:17:54,239
we're willing to give

1798
01:17:58,550 --> 01:17:56,960
and it's very difficult to try to be

1799
01:18:01,590 --> 01:17:58,560
someone's friend

1800
01:18:04,550 --> 01:18:01,600
and an objective investigator

1801
01:18:06,790 --> 01:18:04,560
and give them emotional support

1802
01:18:10,070 --> 01:18:06,800
and then also

1803
01:18:10,830 --> 01:18:10,080
uh be honest to them when we need to

1804
01:18:18,229 --> 01:18:10,840
that

1805
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,239
things you think were all strange

1806
01:18:23,270 --> 01:18:20,800
like at least 15 of them i think you're

1807
01:18:26,229 --> 01:18:23,280
just kind of lumping in with with a

1808
01:18:28,709 --> 01:18:26,239
couple of things you know again we don't

1809
01:18:29,750 --> 01:18:28,719
know what the cause and effect is

1810
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:29,760
and

1811
01:18:35,669 --> 01:18:34,800
both investigators

1812
01:18:38,830 --> 01:18:35,679
and

1813
01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:38,840
witnesses we have responsibilities to

1814
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:42,000
clarify what we're looking for from a

1815
01:18:46,709 --> 01:18:44,000
person and if

1816
01:18:49,910 --> 01:18:46,719
we're able to give it or if they're able

1817
01:18:52,149 --> 01:18:49,920
to give it i think

1818
01:18:54,390 --> 01:18:52,159
here's a question from kelly kidd what

1819
01:18:56,550 --> 01:18:54,400
do you think about the skinwalker ranch

1820
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:56,560
and this can nicely segue into something

1821
01:19:01,669 --> 01:18:59,360
you sent me earlier today

1822
01:19:04,390 --> 01:19:01,679
yes i um

1823
01:19:06,149 --> 01:19:04,400
my general thinking about the skinwalker

1824
01:19:09,350 --> 01:19:06,159
ranch is

1825
01:19:11,669 --> 01:19:09,360
i i know maybe i'm not very interested

1826
01:19:15,189 --> 01:19:11,679
but i'm predictable

1827
01:19:16,070 --> 01:19:15,199
i'm kind of a broken record about

1828
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:16,080
uh

1829
01:19:21,189 --> 01:19:19,440
again as banal says show me the alien is

1830
01:19:22,390 --> 01:19:21,199
the short answer

1831
01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:22,400
for

1832
01:19:25,510 --> 01:19:23,600
um

1833
01:19:29,870 --> 01:19:25,520
i've heard

1834
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,430
catalogued

1835
01:19:35,510 --> 01:19:33,360
for 40 years

1836
01:19:37,510 --> 01:19:35,520
and i've yet to see

1837
01:19:40,790 --> 01:19:37,520
a coherent

1838
01:19:44,470 --> 01:19:40,800
cogent representation of what any of it

1839
01:19:48,149 --> 01:19:44,480
is or what it's supposed to tell me

1840
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:48,159
so until that time comes

1841
01:19:55,110 --> 01:19:52,320
i have really no choice but to shrug my

1842
01:19:58,149 --> 01:19:55,120
shoulders and say the best you can do is

1843
01:20:00,790 --> 01:19:58,159
suspend judgment and if people want to

1844
01:20:04,870 --> 01:20:00,800
start being cynical

1845
01:20:08,709 --> 01:20:04,880
and critical i i think they have a right

1846
01:20:11,030 --> 01:20:08,719
um what martin is alluding to that i i

1847
01:20:14,390 --> 01:20:11,040
told him about earlier

1848
01:20:16,790 --> 01:20:14,400
is just yesterday i got some

1849
01:20:21,189 --> 01:20:16,800
documents back from

1850
01:20:25,110 --> 01:20:21,199
the defense intelligence agency the dia

1851
01:20:26,870 --> 01:20:25,120
that was reportedly the

1852
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:26,880
uh

1853
01:20:32,550 --> 01:20:29,760
the agency that contracted

1854
01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:32,560
the advanced aerospace

1855
01:20:34,750 --> 01:20:33,600
weapon

1856
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:34,760
system

1857
01:20:40,390 --> 01:20:37,600
application program

1858
01:20:42,229 --> 01:20:40,400
which i think many of us came to know as

1859
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:42,239
awesapp

1860
01:20:48,390 --> 01:20:45,679
it's the pentagon ufo program or at

1861
01:20:51,590 --> 01:20:48,400
least one aspect of it

1862
01:20:52,709 --> 01:20:51,600
and the dia um

1863
01:20:55,910 --> 01:20:52,719
uh

1864
01:20:56,790 --> 01:20:55,920
gave me verification through

1865
01:20:59,830 --> 01:20:56,800
some

1866
01:21:03,110 --> 01:20:59,840
foia documents that

1867
01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:03,120
bigelow aerospace did in fact

1868
01:21:09,590 --> 01:21:06,480
uh get an award for the

1869
01:21:10,709 --> 01:21:09,600
asap project and that they they got the

1870
01:21:15,430 --> 01:21:10,719
grant

1871
01:21:18,790 --> 01:21:15,440
um as reported by harry reid and uh

1872
01:21:21,910 --> 01:21:18,800
interesting aspects of the

1873
01:21:24,790 --> 01:21:21,920
foyer release that you can see you can

1874
01:21:28,390 --> 01:21:24,800
access all of the documents and and read

1875
01:21:30,229 --> 01:21:28,400
my blog post about it at my blog the ufo

1876
01:21:33,030 --> 01:21:30,239
trail

1877
01:21:34,390 --> 01:21:33,040
interesting aspects about it include

1878
01:21:36,310 --> 01:21:34,400
that

1879
01:21:38,149 --> 01:21:36,320
uh

1880
01:21:41,669 --> 01:21:38,159
there were people

1881
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:41,679
affiliated with the project hyping it up

1882
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:44,800
and saying how effective it was

1883
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:47,920
at what we now know was the same time

1884
01:21:57,910 --> 01:21:54,709
funding was being resisted by the

1885
01:22:00,870 --> 01:21:57,920
department of defense the dia the

1886
01:22:03,990 --> 01:22:00,880
department of homeland security

1887
01:22:05,350 --> 01:22:04,000
and uh there's some different ways we

1888
01:22:08,149 --> 01:22:05,360
could take

1889
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:08,159
that

1890
01:22:13,510 --> 01:22:10,639
as we mentioned earlier there's

1891
01:22:14,470 --> 01:22:13,520
certainly an aspect of it that's uh

1892
01:22:17,189 --> 01:22:14,480
among

1893
01:22:18,550 --> 01:22:17,199
what we might call a

1894
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:18,560
um

1895
01:22:22,830 --> 01:22:21,600
credulous crowd that is always going to

1896
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:22,840
say

1897
01:22:28,629 --> 01:22:26,080
uh they were on to something and the

1898
01:22:32,310 --> 01:22:28,639
government's hiding it and then there's

1899
01:22:33,910 --> 01:22:32,320
a skeptical crowd that that might say

1900
01:22:34,629 --> 01:22:33,920
um

1901
01:22:40,550 --> 01:22:34,639
the

1902
01:22:43,750 --> 01:22:40,560
projects

1903
01:22:50,229 --> 01:22:46,390
more difficult to convince than some of

1904
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:50,239
the journalists that ran with the story

1905
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:52,480
and then there are some more middle of

1906
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:55,120
the road that might say

1907
01:22:59,110 --> 01:22:56,320
uh

1908
01:23:02,149 --> 01:22:59,120
well it got some money and it did get

1909
01:23:05,510 --> 01:23:02,159
funded bigelow did get funding

1910
01:23:08,790 --> 01:23:05,520
and we need to see if anything

1911
01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:08,800
significant came of this there there is

1912
01:23:13,910 --> 01:23:10,719
nothing in the documents that would

1913
01:23:15,430 --> 01:23:13,920
specifically indicate it was about ufos

1914
01:23:17,350 --> 01:23:15,440
or uap

1915
01:23:20,550 --> 01:23:17,360
as compared to

1916
01:23:22,070 --> 01:23:20,560
weapons applications programs

1917
01:23:24,950 --> 01:23:22,080
um the

1918
01:23:28,310 --> 01:23:24,960
the theoretical papers that have already

1919
01:23:30,470 --> 01:23:28,320
been discussed widely and another

1920
01:23:32,830 --> 01:23:30,480
interesting aspect of it something that

1921
01:23:37,030 --> 01:23:32,840
jumped out at me martin

1922
01:23:38,149 --> 01:23:37,040
was one of the contracts that the dia

1923
01:23:41,750 --> 01:23:38,159
gave me

1924
01:23:44,390 --> 01:23:41,760
says that bigelow's aerospace was to be

1925
01:23:47,350 --> 01:23:44,400
paid 10 million dollars from the

1926
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:47,360
national security agency

1927
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:50,400
and i don't know exactly why

1928
01:23:57,669 --> 01:23:54,239
checks would be cut from the nsa if it

1929
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:57,679
was a dia project i'm not familiar

1930
01:24:04,070 --> 01:24:00,159
enough with their protocol and with

1931
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:04,080
their protocol in 2009 2010

1932
01:24:07,990 --> 01:24:07,040
to know why that might be

1933
01:24:10,709 --> 01:24:08,000
um

1934
01:24:14,629 --> 01:24:10,719
i did remember though there have long

1935
01:24:16,790 --> 01:24:14,639
been rumors that the nsa was involved at

1936
01:24:20,629 --> 01:24:16,800
skinwalker ranch

1937
01:24:23,750 --> 01:24:20,639
and so i i kind of wondered if this at

1938
01:24:24,550 --> 01:24:23,760
least uh is some of the

1939
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:24,560
uh

1940
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:27,280
source of where some of these

1941
01:24:35,189 --> 01:24:31,120
rumors come from

1942
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:35,199
well it it's it's all interesting and

1943
01:24:39,270 --> 01:24:37,679
do you think that there is

1944
01:24:41,110 --> 01:24:39,280
the possibility that there's some

1945
01:24:43,350 --> 01:24:41,120
documents that

1946
01:24:45,750 --> 01:24:43,360
have just not been found yet or do you

1947
01:24:50,229 --> 01:24:45,760
think that

1948
01:24:52,790 --> 01:24:50,239
yes i i anticipate that dia will be

1949
01:24:57,189 --> 01:24:52,800
giving us a significant

1950
01:25:00,629 --> 01:24:57,199
amount in a document release sometime

1951
01:25:02,390 --> 01:25:00,639
after the end of the year they continue

1952
01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:02,400
to

1953
01:25:05,910 --> 01:25:04,000
make

1954
01:25:10,070 --> 01:25:05,920
me and other

1955
01:25:13,430 --> 01:25:10,080
foia researchers aware that a number of

1956
01:25:18,310 --> 01:25:13,440
our foia requests on documents

1957
01:25:21,430 --> 01:25:18,320
uh pertaining to atip and asap and

1958
01:25:25,030 --> 01:25:21,440
general ufo program stuff like any

1959
01:25:27,510 --> 01:25:25,040
contracts they had deliverables reports

1960
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:27,520
that were filed

1961
01:25:34,950 --> 01:25:31,440
a lot of those foias remain open and the

1962
01:25:37,590 --> 01:25:34,960
dia tells us that sometime around the

1963
01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:37,600
end of the year they plan

1964
01:25:42,550 --> 01:25:40,560
to release the material that they have

1965
01:25:45,189 --> 01:25:42,560
been reviewing

1966
01:25:48,629 --> 01:25:45,199
and at that point in time they will post

1967
01:25:52,830 --> 01:25:48,639
it the dia will post it at their

1968
01:25:55,830 --> 01:25:52,840
foia online reading room

1969
01:25:57,270 --> 01:25:55,840
interesting um and i've i've saw

1970
01:25:59,189 --> 01:25:57,280
documents

1971
01:26:01,189 --> 01:25:59,199
recently come out through john

1972
01:26:02,629 --> 01:26:01,199
greenwald's black fault does this have

1973
01:26:06,229 --> 01:26:02,639
anything to do with

1974
01:26:09,430 --> 01:26:06,239
do are they related in any type of way

1975
01:26:13,669 --> 01:26:09,440
probably so john um

1976
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:13,679
he does has done a lot of foia work on

1977
01:26:21,270 --> 01:26:16,880
the pentagon programs so

1978
01:26:23,189 --> 01:26:21,280
um if it's dia and bigelow it probably

1979
01:26:25,669 --> 01:26:23,199
is related yes

1980
01:26:27,990 --> 01:26:25,679
yeah he's been doing such a great work

1981
01:26:30,070 --> 01:26:28,000
for so many years pretty amazing since

1982
01:26:31,350 --> 01:26:30,080
he was like young 16 years old or

1983
01:26:33,430 --> 01:26:31,360
something like that

1984
01:26:37,110 --> 01:26:33,440
right when he started which is pretty

1985
01:26:38,709 --> 01:26:37,120
amazing and uh yeah that i i think his

1986
01:26:41,669 --> 01:26:38,719
that website gets

1987
01:26:43,750 --> 01:26:41,679
i forget how many views per day but it's

1988
01:26:45,590 --> 01:26:43,760
it's amazing how how many people come to

1989
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:45,600
that every single day and look for

1990
01:26:50,550 --> 01:26:47,760
something you know with a i don't know

1991
01:26:53,270 --> 01:26:50,560
how many documents are on there but it's

1992
01:26:57,430 --> 01:26:53,280
i've certainly used it as a source he

1993
01:27:00,149 --> 01:26:57,440
has done admirable work with the foia

1994
01:27:02,070 --> 01:27:00,159
right right and it's not an easy thing

1995
01:27:04,310 --> 01:27:02,080
to do you know from what i understand

1996
01:27:05,830 --> 01:27:04,320
you have to be very precise and there's

1997
01:27:09,189 --> 01:27:05,840
so many ways your

1998
01:27:11,030 --> 01:27:09,199
requests can be rejected and

1999
01:27:13,510 --> 01:27:11,040
and you have to be very

2000
01:27:15,590 --> 01:27:13,520
specific at what you're want wanting and

2001
01:27:18,070 --> 01:27:15,600
they can jump right over

2002
01:27:21,510 --> 01:27:18,080
the topic you want if you say it in some

2003
01:27:25,830 --> 01:27:21,520
type of unusual way or whatever yes and

2004
01:27:27,110 --> 01:27:25,840
in best case scenarios it can even take

2005
01:27:29,990 --> 01:27:27,120
years

2006
01:27:32,629 --> 01:27:30,000
sometimes not sometimes a few weeks

2007
01:27:34,709 --> 01:27:32,639
depending on what it is

2008
01:27:37,590 --> 01:27:34,719
that we ask for

2009
01:27:42,709 --> 01:27:41,110
the general way to do it is request a

2010
01:27:44,790 --> 01:27:42,719
lot of stuff

2011
01:27:46,790 --> 01:27:44,800
regularly

2012
01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:46,800
i do maybe

2013
01:27:52,629 --> 01:27:49,440
i don't know i probably average

2014
01:27:55,430 --> 01:27:52,639
two or three requests a week

2015
01:27:57,189 --> 01:27:55,440
and then over time

2016
01:28:00,149 --> 01:27:57,199
you get to where

2017
01:28:03,510 --> 01:28:00,159
uh you're getting something once a week

2018
01:28:05,189 --> 01:28:03,520
or so like after two or three years

2019
01:28:07,590 --> 01:28:05,199
you're getting something to read and

2020
01:28:10,310 --> 01:28:07,600
look at and i don't want to look for

2021
01:28:13,430 --> 01:28:10,320
just arbitrary things like i don't want

2022
01:28:17,669 --> 01:28:13,440
to just be a thorn in their side

2023
01:28:21,030 --> 01:28:17,679
so uh like nycap i probably have

2024
01:28:24,550 --> 01:28:21,040
oh gosh probably 80 different foia

2025
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:24,560
requests on one person or another or a

2026
01:28:29,030 --> 01:28:26,880
board they were affiliated with or an

2027
01:28:32,310 --> 01:28:29,040
office of the cia

2028
01:28:33,910 --> 01:28:32,320
and so as those continue to come in i'll

2029
01:28:37,110 --> 01:28:33,920
keep posting them

2030
01:28:40,470 --> 01:28:37,120
but yeah if you just send one request

2031
01:28:43,110 --> 01:28:40,480
and wait four years to see what they say

2032
01:28:44,229 --> 01:28:43,120
it can be very uninteresting that way

2033
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:44,239
yeah

2034
01:28:50,550 --> 01:28:46,639
okay the lines are open the phone number

2035
01:28:55,430 --> 01:28:52,149
bill is standing by if you'd like to

2036
01:28:57,830 --> 01:28:55,440
call in for our uh guest tonight and

2037
01:28:59,350 --> 01:28:57,840
don't forget next week is all calls in

2038
01:29:02,070 --> 01:28:59,360
but if you would like to call in please

2039
01:29:03,110 --> 01:29:02,080
give us a ring bill will be standing by

2040
01:29:05,430 --> 01:29:03,120
um

2041
01:29:08,229 --> 01:29:05,440
we have bounced all over the place but

2042
01:29:10,390 --> 01:29:08,239
let's talk now you can get into your

2043
01:29:11,990 --> 01:29:10,400
other book a little bit more if you'd

2044
01:29:14,229 --> 01:29:12,000
like to discuss more of what that's

2045
01:29:15,270 --> 01:29:14,239
about

2046
01:29:16,790 --> 01:29:15,280
sure

2047
01:29:20,070 --> 01:29:16,800
um

2048
01:29:21,750 --> 01:29:20,080
i mentioned a couple times that the ufo

2049
01:29:25,030 --> 01:29:21,760
community

2050
01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:25,040
may be better called the ufo subculture

2051
01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:28,320
has a tendency to to try to

2052
01:29:32,470 --> 01:29:31,280
to pull people into one camp or other

2053
01:29:35,350 --> 01:29:32,480
and

2054
01:29:38,470 --> 01:29:35,360
persuade people it can it can become a

2055
01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:38,480
lot like lobbying efforts or

2056
01:29:42,629 --> 01:29:41,280
even rooting for a favorite sports team

2057
01:29:44,669 --> 01:29:42,639
or something

2058
01:29:46,629 --> 01:29:44,679
uh where it becomes

2059
01:29:51,189 --> 01:29:46,639
ideological

2060
01:29:54,310 --> 01:29:51,199
and not so much about and often rarely

2061
01:29:57,350 --> 01:29:54,320
about credible research that meets

2062
01:29:58,390 --> 01:29:57,360
professional research standards

2063
01:30:00,629 --> 01:29:58,400
and

2064
01:30:04,229 --> 01:30:00,639
i felt like in the grades had been

2065
01:30:06,709 --> 01:30:04,239
framed that i had some things

2066
01:30:10,629 --> 01:30:06,719
to say that that

2067
01:30:14,550 --> 01:30:10,639
needed to be said about topics such as

2068
01:30:15,510 --> 01:30:14,560
hypnosis as a memory retrieval tool

2069
01:30:17,270 --> 01:30:15,520
and

2070
01:30:19,030 --> 01:30:17,280
some of the

2071
01:30:22,149 --> 01:30:19,040
uh

2072
01:30:25,430 --> 01:30:22,159
the way that researchers were put on

2073
01:30:27,750 --> 01:30:25,440
pedestals and not questioned

2074
01:30:30,950 --> 01:30:27,760
about their tactics

2075
01:30:35,350 --> 01:30:30,960
and uh can continue

2076
01:30:37,910 --> 01:30:35,360
uh by a certain segment of the community

2077
01:30:40,070 --> 01:30:37,920
that doesn't understand memory that

2078
01:30:43,510 --> 01:30:40,080
doesn't understand

2079
01:30:46,470 --> 01:30:43,520
uh the damage that can be done to people

2080
01:30:51,030 --> 01:30:46,480
that use memory retrieval techniques to

2081
01:30:53,990 --> 01:30:51,040
try to hammer at a single memory from 20

2082
01:30:55,669 --> 01:30:54,000
30 45 years ago

2083
01:30:58,550 --> 01:30:55,679
and

2084
01:30:59,430 --> 01:30:58,560
i started getting into as well in that

2085
01:31:01,510 --> 01:30:59,440
book

2086
01:31:04,950 --> 01:31:01,520
the the way that the intelligence

2087
01:31:06,390 --> 01:31:04,960
community overlaps into

2088
01:31:13,350 --> 01:31:06,400
the

2089
01:31:14,709 --> 01:31:13,360
similarity between

2090
01:31:17,270 --> 01:31:14,719
um

2091
01:31:19,750 --> 01:31:17,280
ufo hypnotism

2092
01:31:22,790 --> 01:31:19,760
and the satanic panic

2093
01:31:24,149 --> 01:31:22,800
memory retrieval and and how people were

2094
01:31:26,709 --> 01:31:24,159
accused of

2095
01:31:27,910 --> 01:31:26,719
um just terrible things that they didn't

2096
01:31:32,310 --> 01:31:27,920
do

2097
01:31:34,229 --> 01:31:32,320
and the intelligence community use of

2098
01:31:38,149 --> 01:31:34,239
hypnosis

2099
01:31:40,470 --> 01:31:38,159
as an interrogation tool and we tend to

2100
01:31:44,149 --> 01:31:40,480
think that that stopped

2101
01:31:48,229 --> 01:31:44,159
uh around the mk ultra era maybe during

2102
01:31:50,950 --> 01:31:48,239
the mid 70s but there's plenty of

2103
01:31:54,550 --> 01:31:50,960
evidence that it continues

2104
01:31:55,990 --> 01:31:54,560
to be used hypnosis as an interrogation

2105
01:31:58,790 --> 01:31:56,000
technique

2106
01:32:03,030 --> 01:31:58,800
in the uh

2107
01:32:07,590 --> 01:32:03,040
intelligence community and as a way to

2108
01:32:10,830 --> 01:32:07,600
uh try to influence people and so i i

2109
01:32:14,149 --> 01:32:10,840
explore that and i explore some specific

2110
01:32:16,790 --> 01:32:14,159
cases uh like like we mentioned earlier

2111
01:32:20,310 --> 01:32:16,800
the bill moore case but there were other

2112
01:32:21,750 --> 01:32:20,320
people during that era as well

2113
01:32:25,110 --> 01:32:21,760
that had

2114
01:32:28,149 --> 01:32:25,120
strange interactions with the air force

2115
01:32:30,790 --> 01:32:28,159
office of special investigations

2116
01:32:34,550 --> 01:32:30,800
and that seemed to have been set up to

2117
01:32:37,669 --> 01:32:34,560
some extent simone mendes is who i'm

2118
01:32:40,709 --> 01:32:37,679
talking about and i explore her case

2119
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:40,719
and a few other cases as well

2120
01:32:45,910 --> 01:32:43,679
uh in specifics that

2121
01:32:48,550 --> 01:32:45,920
um

2122
01:32:51,590 --> 01:32:48,560
we again we just find this overlap with

2123
01:32:54,149 --> 01:32:51,600
the intelligence community that it i

2124
01:32:55,750 --> 01:32:54,159
find it hard to believe that their

2125
01:33:00,629 --> 01:32:55,760
primary

2126
01:33:01,950 --> 01:33:00,639
concern is something about uh ufos or

2127
01:33:03,990 --> 01:33:01,960
or uh

2128
01:33:08,790 --> 01:33:04,000
extraterrestrials or something of that

2129
01:33:14,310 --> 01:33:12,390
here's a question from jackson

2130
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:14,320
jack what four-year document has made

2131
01:33:19,270 --> 01:33:15,840
the biggest impression on your work

2132
01:33:25,990 --> 01:33:21,910
that's a good question the first one

2133
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:26,000
that comes to mind is

2134
01:33:31,910 --> 01:33:29,440
one of the things that made me say okay

2135
01:33:33,830 --> 01:33:31,920
i'm just gonna go with a book about

2136
01:33:34,950 --> 01:33:33,840
nycap

2137
01:33:38,950 --> 01:33:34,960
was

2138
01:33:42,149 --> 01:33:38,960
foia documents i got from the fbi

2139
01:33:46,790 --> 01:33:42,159
on nicholas derockford

2140
01:33:48,390 --> 01:33:46,800
who was almost certainly a cia asset

2141
01:33:50,470 --> 01:33:48,400
and

2142
01:33:51,750 --> 01:33:50,480
was heavily involved

2143
01:34:02,470 --> 01:33:51,760
in

2144
01:34:06,470 --> 01:34:02,480
highest

2145
01:34:09,550 --> 01:34:06,480
of government um

2146
01:34:11,990 --> 01:34:09,560
when the fbi was doing their

2147
01:34:14,550 --> 01:34:12,000
investigative review on him they went

2148
01:34:16,709 --> 01:34:14,560
all the way to the joint chiefs of staff

2149
01:34:18,709 --> 01:34:16,719
for statements on him because he knew

2150
01:34:21,430 --> 01:34:18,719
people there

2151
01:34:24,629 --> 01:34:21,440
and then this guy for whatever reasons

2152
01:34:27,030 --> 01:34:24,639
was a nightcap organizer and

2153
01:34:28,709 --> 01:34:27,040
uh one of the first people to work in

2154
01:34:32,310 --> 01:34:28,719
nycap

2155
01:34:35,030 --> 01:34:32,320
and the foia document that i got that i

2156
01:34:37,830 --> 01:34:35,040
thought was really interesting

2157
01:34:41,430 --> 01:34:37,840
was that while the washington field

2158
01:34:43,109 --> 01:34:41,440
office was doing an investigation on

2159
01:34:44,550 --> 01:34:43,119
roguefort

2160
01:34:48,070 --> 01:34:44,560
they sent

2161
01:34:51,430 --> 01:34:48,080
director hoover a memo that is heavily

2162
01:34:54,229 --> 01:34:51,440
red acted heavily blacked out

2163
01:34:58,709 --> 01:34:54,239
that states that they talked to a

2164
01:35:02,229 --> 01:34:58,719
confidential informant about rockford

2165
01:35:03,270 --> 01:35:02,239
and that the information was given to

2166
01:35:04,550 --> 01:35:03,280
them

2167
01:35:07,510 --> 01:35:04,560
under

2168
01:35:10,350 --> 01:35:07,520
the agreement that it was not to be

2169
01:35:12,830 --> 01:35:10,360
shared with other agencies or

2170
01:35:14,629 --> 01:35:12,840
investigators or even

2171
01:35:16,390 --> 01:35:14,639
outside of

2172
01:35:18,550 --> 01:35:16,400
hoover's office

2173
01:35:21,830 --> 01:35:18,560
and so when the

2174
01:35:25,030 --> 01:35:21,840
washington fbi man sent this to hoover

2175
01:35:28,390 --> 01:35:25,040
with his reports he sent copies of the

2176
01:35:30,950 --> 01:35:28,400
reports for the other offices but only

2177
01:35:33,669 --> 01:35:30,960
this one letter to hoover

2178
01:35:37,669 --> 01:35:33,679
and the information is blacked out that

2179
01:35:39,590 --> 01:35:37,679
the informant gave him about ropefort

2180
01:35:40,830 --> 01:35:39,600
and

2181
01:35:43,430 --> 01:35:40,840
very

2182
01:35:45,510 --> 01:35:43,440
interestingly this was

2183
01:35:46,550 --> 01:35:45,520
the month

2184
01:35:49,590 --> 01:35:46,560
after

2185
01:35:51,590 --> 01:35:49,600
nycap was incorporated it was november

2186
01:35:54,390 --> 01:35:51,600
1956

2187
01:35:56,310 --> 01:35:54,400
during the time wrote for it was working

2188
01:36:00,149 --> 01:35:56,320
with nycap

2189
01:36:01,109 --> 01:36:00,159
i requested a review of the document for

2190
01:36:04,390 --> 01:36:01,119
further

2191
01:36:06,629 --> 01:36:04,400
disclosure and the fbi conducted the

2192
01:36:07,430 --> 01:36:06,639
review but declined

2193
01:36:10,390 --> 01:36:07,440
to

2194
01:36:13,510 --> 01:36:10,400
offer any further information on it

2195
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:13,520
and so that really intrigued me

2196
01:36:19,750 --> 01:36:16,800
and i began looking more and more into

2197
01:36:22,470 --> 01:36:19,760
rockford and his associates that were

2198
01:36:26,390 --> 01:36:22,480
involved in incorporating and launching

2199
01:36:33,590 --> 01:36:30,229
now what caused nycap to

2200
01:36:36,070 --> 01:36:33,600
basically fall apart in 1980 i saw there

2201
01:36:38,070 --> 01:36:36,080
was a lot of infighting do you think any

2202
01:36:39,990 --> 01:36:38,080
of that was related to the intelligence

2203
01:36:43,830 --> 01:36:40,000
community

2204
01:36:48,709 --> 01:36:43,840
well there were always uh people linked

2205
01:36:52,870 --> 01:36:48,719
to if not directly employed with the cia

2206
01:36:54,470 --> 01:36:52,880
in the final years of nycap

2207
01:36:56,070 --> 01:36:54,480
on its board

2208
01:36:58,550 --> 01:36:56,080
managing it

2209
01:37:00,790 --> 01:36:58,560
taking care of phone calls things like

2210
01:37:04,830 --> 01:37:00,800
that

2211
01:37:07,350 --> 01:37:04,840
the demise of nycat really started in

2212
01:37:09,030 --> 01:37:07,360
1969 when they

2213
01:37:12,070 --> 01:37:09,040
uh removed

2214
01:37:13,590 --> 01:37:12,080
donald kehoe and gordon lohr from their

2215
01:37:14,709 --> 01:37:13,600
positions

2216
01:37:18,470 --> 01:37:14,719
and

2217
01:37:22,390 --> 01:37:18,480
uh they they put some other people in

2218
01:37:24,950 --> 01:37:22,400
and morale was bad they tried to hang on

2219
01:37:28,229 --> 01:37:24,960
during the 70s and

2220
01:37:30,470 --> 01:37:28,239
uh he even did some some reasonably

2221
01:37:32,709 --> 01:37:30,480
interesting investigations

2222
01:37:34,470 --> 01:37:32,719
and printed some materials that were

2223
01:37:37,189 --> 01:37:34,480
reasonably interesting

2224
01:37:38,870 --> 01:37:37,199
but it never had the boots on the ground

2225
01:37:39,870 --> 01:37:38,880
enthusiasm

2226
01:37:42,709 --> 01:37:39,880
that the

2227
01:37:43,830 --> 01:37:42,719
mid-1960s nycap had

2228
01:37:47,430 --> 01:37:43,840
and

2229
01:37:50,310 --> 01:37:47,440
by the 1980s was little more than uh

2230
01:37:53,030 --> 01:37:50,320
just a name on paper and i think it was

2231
01:37:55,109 --> 01:37:53,040
1982 was actually

2232
01:37:58,790 --> 01:37:55,119
uh sold to

2233
01:38:00,070 --> 01:37:58,800
um the center for ufo studies and uh the

2234
01:38:03,590 --> 01:38:00,080
allen

2235
01:38:06,470 --> 01:38:03,600
but

2236
01:38:08,870 --> 01:38:06,480
even in the 1960s

2237
01:38:13,990 --> 01:38:12,310
kehoe was starting to lose his swagger

2238
01:38:15,590 --> 01:38:14,000
with nycat

2239
01:38:17,430 --> 01:38:15,600
and

2240
01:38:20,470 --> 01:38:17,440
uh when the point came that the

2241
01:38:21,750 --> 01:38:20,480
congressional hearings and a ufo study

2242
01:38:24,709 --> 01:38:21,760
conducted

2243
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:24,719
at the university of colorado known as

2244
01:38:27,669 --> 01:38:26,719
the continent report

2245
01:38:33,189 --> 01:38:27,679
um

2246
01:38:36,310 --> 01:38:33,199
didn't go the way kehoe and nycap wanted

2247
01:38:39,270 --> 01:38:36,320
some people feel like that the cia said

2248
01:38:40,790 --> 01:38:39,280
okay now's our chance let's stop this

2249
01:38:43,189 --> 01:38:40,800
shenanigans

2250
01:38:45,910 --> 01:38:43,199
other people feel like

2251
01:38:47,669 --> 01:38:45,920
tiho kind of dug his own grave and that

2252
01:38:50,390 --> 01:38:47,679
people were tired

2253
01:38:52,149 --> 01:38:50,400
of bashing the air force bashing the

2254
01:38:54,470 --> 01:38:52,159
c.i.a

2255
01:38:58,390 --> 01:38:54,480
remember that was a point in time that

2256
01:39:01,270 --> 01:38:58,400
patriotic americans wanted to be behind

2257
01:39:03,990 --> 01:39:01,280
the fbi and the air force and

2258
01:39:05,830 --> 01:39:04,000
a much different time

2259
01:39:07,830 --> 01:39:05,840
um

2260
01:39:10,149 --> 01:39:07,840
i tend to think a little of all of

2261
01:39:13,990 --> 01:39:10,159
that's involved if

2262
01:39:17,189 --> 01:39:14,000
if the cia launched nycap which i'm

2263
01:39:19,669 --> 01:39:17,199
pretty thoroughly convinced it did

2264
01:39:22,229 --> 01:39:19,679
and i think there were people

2265
01:39:24,470 --> 01:39:22,239
working with nycap that didn't need to

2266
01:39:27,030 --> 01:39:24,480
be read into that

2267
01:39:29,510 --> 01:39:27,040
information i think donald kehoe was

2268
01:39:32,149 --> 01:39:29,520
probably one of them

2269
01:39:34,790 --> 01:39:32,159
i think gordon lohr was i i think that

2270
01:39:39,270 --> 01:39:34,800
their intentions were sincere and that

2271
01:39:43,590 --> 01:39:41,750
i just

2272
01:39:46,790 --> 01:39:43,600
feel like that

2273
01:39:49,189 --> 01:39:46,800
if the cia launched the organization

2274
01:39:52,229 --> 01:39:49,199
then it wouldn't have just thrown it to

2275
01:39:55,189 --> 01:39:52,239
the curb over the years and it was not

2276
01:39:58,070 --> 01:39:55,199
going to leave it up to chance

2277
01:40:02,070 --> 01:39:58,080
for how it played out

2278
01:40:05,510 --> 01:40:02,080
and i think that's why ci associates

2279
01:40:08,149 --> 01:40:05,520
were brought in in the 70s

2280
01:40:09,189 --> 01:40:08,159
to act as president and remain on the

2281
01:40:11,430 --> 01:40:09,199
board

2282
01:40:12,709 --> 01:40:11,440
and uh just kind of

2283
01:40:15,669 --> 01:40:12,719
keep it

2284
01:40:17,990 --> 01:40:15,679
officially open if

2285
01:40:21,189 --> 01:40:18,000
other opportunities came along that were

2286
01:40:23,590 --> 01:40:21,199
needed but at some point they just

2287
01:40:26,470 --> 01:40:23,600
dissolved the organization

2288
01:40:29,430 --> 01:40:26,480
and it might be interesting to see

2289
01:40:30,629 --> 01:40:29,440
the timeline of what was going on and

2290
01:40:32,470 --> 01:40:30,639
mufon

2291
01:40:34,070 --> 01:40:32,480
with the intelligence

2292
01:40:35,350 --> 01:40:34,080
organizations

2293
01:40:38,390 --> 01:40:35,360
and as

2294
01:40:41,590 --> 01:40:38,400
these guys aged out and they just kind

2295
01:40:44,709 --> 01:40:41,600
of shuddered nycap if then we were

2296
01:40:47,109 --> 01:40:44,719
kicking back into gear with the aviary

2297
01:40:51,430 --> 01:40:47,119
and bill moore and his crew

2298
01:40:53,669 --> 01:40:51,440
um and mufon and groups like that

2299
01:40:55,109 --> 01:40:53,679
um so someone just wrote in the chat

2300
01:40:55,910 --> 01:40:55,119
that they can't get through in the phone

2301
01:40:58,870 --> 01:40:55,920
line

2302
01:41:02,550 --> 01:40:58,880
so hopefully bill is uh listening

2303
01:41:05,590 --> 01:41:03,510
so

2304
01:41:08,470 --> 01:41:05,600
earlier you said

2305
01:41:10,709 --> 01:41:08,480
that you did not know

2306
01:41:13,350 --> 01:41:10,719
oh the line's not working okay i just

2307
01:41:15,350 --> 01:41:13,360
see the text yeah all right uh well

2308
01:41:16,790 --> 01:41:15,360
maybe it is i'm i'm not sure what's

2309
01:41:19,030 --> 01:41:16,800
going on

2310
01:41:20,390 --> 01:41:19,040
anyway um

2311
01:41:22,149 --> 01:41:20,400
you said you didn't know about a

2312
01:41:24,229 --> 01:41:22,159
specific case because you didn't throw

2313
01:41:26,950 --> 01:41:24,239
down the gauntlet on it do you have any

2314
01:41:31,270 --> 01:41:26,960
cases you've thrown the gauntlet down on

2315
01:41:32,790 --> 01:41:31,280
um somewhat i do uh nycap in general

2316
01:41:36,149 --> 01:41:32,800
would be one

2317
01:41:37,750 --> 01:41:36,159
um and the grades had been framed i went

2318
01:41:41,350 --> 01:41:37,760
pretty hard

2319
01:41:42,950 --> 01:41:41,360
into the emma woods case uh

2320
01:41:44,550 --> 01:41:42,960
i know about that one

2321
01:41:47,910 --> 01:41:44,560
yeah and

2322
01:41:51,109 --> 01:41:47,920
i dissected it pretty heavily

2323
01:41:52,470 --> 01:41:51,119
i was pretty interested in

2324
01:41:54,870 --> 01:41:52,480
uh

2325
01:41:57,830 --> 01:41:54,880
carol rainey and bud hopkins his

2326
01:41:59,270 --> 01:41:57,840
association and i went through it as

2327
01:42:02,550 --> 01:41:59,280
well

2328
01:42:03,590 --> 01:42:02,560
uh the leah hailey case was fascinating

2329
01:42:06,950 --> 01:42:03,600
to me

2330
01:42:08,390 --> 01:42:06,960
and again by this point in my research

2331
01:42:12,790 --> 01:42:08,400
the into

2332
01:42:14,950 --> 01:42:12,800
in 2000s and i i published that book in

2333
01:42:18,790 --> 01:42:14,960
2006

2334
01:42:22,070 --> 01:42:18,800
i was interested in social circumstances

2335
01:42:25,109 --> 01:42:22,080
and i wasn't expecting to find

2336
01:42:27,030 --> 01:42:25,119
a really peculiar

2337
01:42:30,310 --> 01:42:27,040
uh

2338
01:42:32,629 --> 01:42:30,320
high strangeness type of thing as much

2339
01:42:35,030 --> 01:42:32,639
as i was interested in

2340
01:42:35,910 --> 01:42:35,040
what can we

2341
01:42:37,750 --> 01:42:35,920
uh

2342
01:42:39,990 --> 01:42:37,760
establish happen

2343
01:42:42,390 --> 01:42:40,000
like like we're we're never gonna know

2344
01:42:44,790 --> 01:42:42,400
you know what someone thinks they saw or

2345
01:42:47,830 --> 01:42:44,800
or that kind of thing but we can

2346
01:42:50,310 --> 01:42:47,840
establish that this researcher called

2347
01:42:53,030 --> 01:42:50,320
this person on this date and they said

2348
01:42:55,830 --> 01:42:53,040
this and then they met with this person

2349
01:42:57,350 --> 01:42:55,840
and this intelligence community member

2350
01:42:59,910 --> 01:42:57,360
had this to say

2351
01:43:03,750 --> 01:42:59,920
and this intelligence community person

2352
01:43:07,030 --> 01:43:03,760
told the newspaper this about leah haley

2353
01:43:10,390 --> 01:43:07,040
and things like that that interested me

2354
01:43:13,270 --> 01:43:10,400
and i i took a deep dive into that and

2355
01:43:16,310 --> 01:43:13,280
thus the name of the book uh

2356
01:43:19,830 --> 01:43:16,320
the greys had been framed exploitation

2357
01:43:22,790 --> 01:43:19,840
in the ufo community is that whatever

2358
01:43:24,709 --> 01:43:22,800
the reasons that that some of these

2359
01:43:27,750 --> 01:43:24,719
people

2360
01:43:28,669 --> 01:43:27,760
did find themselves interacting

2361
01:43:32,950 --> 01:43:28,679
with

2362
01:43:35,430 --> 01:43:32,960
researchers that we question their

2363
01:43:37,430 --> 01:43:35,440
their motives or members of the

2364
01:43:42,149 --> 01:43:37,440
intelligence community

2365
01:43:45,189 --> 01:43:42,159
that their agenda is unclear

2366
01:43:48,550 --> 01:43:45,199
it's clear enough that

2367
01:43:51,189 --> 01:43:48,560
the circumstances were exploited

2368
01:43:52,950 --> 01:43:51,199
for reasons that we often

2369
01:43:54,870 --> 01:43:52,960
can't really

2370
01:43:58,470 --> 01:43:54,880
uh identify

2371
01:44:01,590 --> 01:43:58,480
sometimes it seems apparent enough

2372
01:44:02,550 --> 01:44:01,600
other times it's less so

2373
01:44:06,310 --> 01:44:02,560
and

2374
01:44:07,910 --> 01:44:06,320
we seem to almost be on this spin cycle

2375
01:44:10,390 --> 01:44:07,920
pardon the pun

2376
01:44:11,669 --> 01:44:10,400
in ufology that this just keeps

2377
01:44:12,870 --> 01:44:11,679
happening

2378
01:44:17,270 --> 01:44:12,880
that

2379
01:44:20,390 --> 01:44:17,280
uh phds intelligence community members

2380
01:44:23,990 --> 01:44:20,400
uh seemingly sincere people

2381
01:44:26,709 --> 01:44:24,000
get caught in this wave of saying

2382
01:44:30,149 --> 01:44:26,719
extraordinary things and the stuff never

2383
01:44:33,350 --> 01:44:30,159
really pans out and then at some point

2384
01:44:35,910 --> 01:44:33,360
we're just looking back at it and some

2385
01:44:38,470 --> 01:44:35,920
new group is doing it again just seems

2386
01:44:41,590 --> 01:44:38,480
to to happen over and over

2387
01:44:45,270 --> 01:44:41,600
and to me that is probably most

2388
01:44:47,510 --> 01:44:45,280
disappointing among the academics

2389
01:44:50,070 --> 01:44:47,520
because the intelligence community

2390
01:44:53,590 --> 01:44:50,080
people may be doing their jobs to some

2391
01:44:56,709 --> 01:44:53,600
extent or at least in some circumstances

2392
01:45:00,470 --> 01:44:56,719
whatever that propaganda or public

2393
01:45:03,270 --> 01:45:00,480
relations campaign or that job may be

2394
01:45:07,990 --> 01:45:03,280
the the people that see

2395
01:45:10,550 --> 01:45:08,000
the ufo genre uh as i originally did

2396
01:45:13,270 --> 01:45:10,560
through a lens of wow i wonder what

2397
01:45:15,750 --> 01:45:13,280
these flying saucers are i wonder what

2398
01:45:19,430 --> 01:45:15,760
happened to betty and barney hill and

2399
01:45:21,669 --> 01:45:19,440
things like that are understandably just

2400
01:45:23,669 --> 01:45:21,679
trying to figure out and learn more

2401
01:45:27,149 --> 01:45:23,679
about what's going on

2402
01:45:28,709 --> 01:45:27,159
so i think i hold most responsible the

2403
01:45:29,510 --> 01:45:28,719
academics

2404
01:45:32,390 --> 01:45:29,520
that

2405
01:45:35,270 --> 01:45:32,400
we're educated to know better

2406
01:45:38,310 --> 01:45:35,280
and they know the professional research

2407
01:45:41,910 --> 01:45:38,320
process and they understand

2408
01:45:43,510 --> 01:45:41,920
when they are and when they are not

2409
01:45:46,070 --> 01:45:43,520
uh

2410
01:45:47,430 --> 01:45:46,080
talking out their rear end for lack of a

2411
01:45:50,629 --> 01:45:47,440
better term

2412
01:45:53,709 --> 01:45:50,639
and so that's the people that i i think

2413
01:45:55,350 --> 01:45:53,719
i hold most responsible for it is the

2414
01:45:56,790 --> 01:45:55,360
academics

2415
01:45:59,830 --> 01:45:56,800
that don't

2416
01:46:02,310 --> 01:45:59,840
um put up or shut up but we'll keep

2417
01:46:04,390 --> 01:46:02,320
doing interviews and talking about all

2418
01:46:05,910 --> 01:46:04,400
this exciting stuff that they're hoping

2419
01:46:07,510 --> 01:46:05,920
to find

2420
01:46:10,629 --> 01:46:07,520
and

2421
01:46:12,390 --> 01:46:10,639
okay so maybe they're maybe they're just

2422
01:46:15,189 --> 01:46:12,400
uh speculating

2423
01:46:18,390 --> 01:46:15,199
and they're entitled to like anyone else

2424
01:46:20,870 --> 01:46:18,400
but a problem with that is like any

2425
01:46:23,830 --> 01:46:20,880
story

2426
01:46:25,030 --> 01:46:23,840
like that the correction doesn't get

2427
01:46:29,109 --> 01:46:25,040
near

2428
01:46:31,990 --> 01:46:29,119
the face time that the initial fantastic

2429
01:46:35,430 --> 01:46:32,000
claim does and when they come along with

2430
01:46:39,350 --> 01:46:35,440
a paper five years from now that says

2431
01:46:43,910 --> 01:46:41,750
it wasn't so fantastic

2432
01:46:45,669 --> 01:46:43,920
there are still people

2433
01:46:46,790 --> 01:46:45,679
clinging to

2434
01:46:48,790 --> 01:46:46,800
the

2435
01:46:51,669 --> 01:46:48,800
beliefs

2436
01:46:54,709 --> 01:46:51,679
that that were floated and asserted in

2437
01:46:56,310 --> 01:46:54,719
the first place

2438
01:46:59,030 --> 01:46:56,320
okay um

2439
01:47:01,350 --> 01:46:59,040
yeah so uh i apologize for to the people

2440
01:47:03,910 --> 01:47:01,360
that the phone line uh was not working

2441
01:47:05,189 --> 01:47:03,920
thanks for trying to call in um

2442
01:47:07,350 --> 01:47:05,199
and

2443
01:47:10,229 --> 01:47:07,360
someone mentioned what you thought about

2444
01:47:12,629 --> 01:47:10,239
you know the um new fork the call-in

2445
01:47:14,870 --> 01:47:12,639
center now that's not something that

2446
01:47:16,870 --> 01:47:14,880
would ever be infiltrated

2447
01:47:19,270 --> 01:47:16,880
something like that i mean

2448
01:47:22,629 --> 01:47:19,280
that's just a single guy peter davenport

2449
01:47:25,910 --> 01:47:22,639
basically taking in reports um so

2450
01:47:29,350 --> 01:47:25,920
nothing really my interactions directly

2451
01:47:31,910 --> 01:47:29,360
with mr davenport have always been good

2452
01:47:34,070 --> 01:47:31,920
he's been helpful when i've asked him

2453
01:47:35,430 --> 01:47:34,080
about reports

2454
01:47:38,790 --> 01:47:35,440
uh

2455
01:47:41,830 --> 01:47:38,800
i could say more so than the mutual ufo

2456
01:47:44,950 --> 01:47:41,840
network he's at least

2457
01:47:47,510 --> 01:47:44,960
willing to give a response for a blog

2458
01:47:51,109 --> 01:47:47,520
post he's willing to direct me

2459
01:47:55,830 --> 01:47:51,119
to reports that were filed i haven't

2460
01:48:01,590 --> 01:47:57,070
[Music]

2461
01:48:09,109 --> 01:48:05,510
assistance from other groups like mufon

2462
01:48:12,390 --> 01:48:09,119
so i i don't have anything um

2463
01:48:14,310 --> 01:48:12,400
negative to say about about new fork or

2464
01:48:17,669 --> 01:48:14,320
mr davenport

2465
01:48:18,790 --> 01:48:17,679
i can certainly understand where in his

2466
01:48:23,030 --> 01:48:18,800
day

2467
01:48:24,550 --> 01:48:23,040
that that was an idea of something to do

2468
01:48:26,149 --> 01:48:24,560
and um

2469
01:48:29,109 --> 01:48:26,159
like you were saying

2470
01:48:31,430 --> 01:48:29,119
uh about the persistence of researchers

2471
01:48:33,109 --> 01:48:31,440
he he stuck with it and he kept with it

2472
01:48:35,270 --> 01:48:33,119
for many years

2473
01:48:36,790 --> 01:48:35,280
right here's another question that came

2474
01:48:38,790 --> 01:48:36,800
come up just ignore the last part it

2475
01:48:41,669 --> 01:48:38,800
says jack what is

2476
01:48:44,229 --> 01:48:41,679
what has been your biggest takeaway for

2477
01:48:51,109 --> 01:48:44,239
today from your research on the ufo

2478
01:48:56,950 --> 01:48:54,550
that there is an undeniable element of

2479
01:49:01,669 --> 01:48:56,960
the intelligence community

2480
01:49:04,470 --> 01:49:01,679
on an ongoing basis in the ufo

2481
01:49:06,950 --> 01:49:04,480
subculture

2482
01:49:09,830 --> 01:49:06,960
as i mentioned earlier i think the

2483
01:49:11,910 --> 01:49:09,840
reasons change from one specific

2484
01:49:15,830 --> 01:49:11,920
instance to the next

2485
01:49:19,270 --> 01:49:15,840
but i think it's largely misunderstood

2486
01:49:20,390 --> 01:49:19,280
by the public at large and the people

2487
01:49:22,070 --> 01:49:20,400
uh

2488
01:49:24,310 --> 01:49:22,080
like myself

2489
01:49:27,030 --> 01:49:24,320
that come into this wanting to learn

2490
01:49:29,350 --> 01:49:27,040
more about ufos

2491
01:49:30,629 --> 01:49:29,360
i don't think that we understand the

2492
01:49:33,270 --> 01:49:30,639
extent

2493
01:49:36,629 --> 01:49:33,280
that the intelligence community is

2494
01:49:39,430 --> 01:49:36,639
involved in it and manipulating it

2495
01:49:42,790 --> 01:49:39,440
and even people that will come in and be

2496
01:49:45,750 --> 01:49:42,800
at it for a few years often don't

2497
01:49:48,470 --> 01:49:45,760
understand the extent of what happened

2498
01:49:49,830 --> 01:49:48,480
20 years ago and 30 years ago and 40

2499
01:49:53,189 --> 01:49:49,840
years ago

2500
01:49:55,589 --> 01:49:53,199
and how repetitive it is

2501
01:49:58,070 --> 01:49:55,599
and there's see there's an element as i

2502
01:50:01,030 --> 01:49:58,080
was saying about academics

2503
01:50:04,070 --> 01:50:01,040
and intelligence members there's an

2504
01:50:07,189 --> 01:50:04,080
element of deception there

2505
01:50:11,830 --> 01:50:08,790
while they

2506
01:50:15,109 --> 01:50:11,840
may not they may or may not

2507
01:50:18,070 --> 01:50:15,119
allude to it's never happened before and

2508
01:50:22,070 --> 01:50:18,080
that stuff happening now is new

2509
01:50:23,350 --> 01:50:22,080
but by not educating their following

2510
01:50:26,229 --> 01:50:23,360
about

2511
01:50:29,430 --> 01:50:26,239
what's taken place in the past there

2512
01:50:33,030 --> 01:50:29,440
there's a certain element of deception

2513
01:50:36,470 --> 01:50:33,040
and lying through omission and some

2514
01:50:39,109 --> 01:50:36,480
outright misrepresent circumstances and

2515
01:50:42,390 --> 01:50:39,119
then don't correct them and

2516
01:50:44,470 --> 01:50:42,400
uh so that would be my main takeaway

2517
01:50:47,589 --> 01:50:44,480
is um

2518
01:50:50,870 --> 01:50:47,599
i wouldn't rule out that there's some

2519
01:50:52,870 --> 01:50:50,880
unusual phenomena that is yet to be

2520
01:50:55,830 --> 01:50:52,880
better understood

2521
01:50:58,550 --> 01:50:55,840
but it is undeniable that the

2522
01:50:59,910 --> 01:50:58,560
intelligence community has had a front

2523
01:51:03,589 --> 01:50:59,920
row seat

2524
01:51:07,270 --> 01:51:03,599
in the way the topic is massaged and

2525
01:51:10,470 --> 01:51:07,280
interpreted by the public since the very

2526
01:51:13,030 --> 01:51:10,480
outset of the modern ufo phenomenon in

2527
01:51:15,109 --> 01:51:13,040
the 1940s

2528
01:51:16,550 --> 01:51:15,119
it's all very interesting we have two

2529
01:51:18,470 --> 01:51:16,560
questions we only have three minutes

2530
01:51:19,910 --> 01:51:18,480
left we'll see if you can get these

2531
01:51:23,510 --> 01:51:19,920
answered have you ever heard of the term

2532
01:51:25,510 --> 01:51:23,520
uct uncorrelated targets it's a norads

2533
01:51:26,709 --> 01:51:25,520
acronym for the phenomenon i never heard

2534
01:51:29,350 --> 01:51:26,719
that before

2535
01:51:32,229 --> 01:51:29,360
um not off the top of my head if i've

2536
01:51:34,470 --> 01:51:32,239
come across it it didn't resonate with

2537
01:51:38,470 --> 01:51:34,480
me for some reason yeah we don't need

2538
01:51:41,030 --> 01:51:38,480
other acronyms really uap and

2539
01:51:42,550 --> 01:51:41,040
the uh the new thing that congress i

2540
01:51:44,790 --> 01:51:42,560
mean that uh

2541
01:51:46,870 --> 01:51:44,800
the government has set up has so many

2542
01:51:48,149 --> 01:51:46,880
letters and we have to make up a funny

2543
01:51:50,470 --> 01:51:48,159
word for that one i don't know if you

2544
01:51:54,310 --> 01:51:50,480
saw that it's a big

2545
01:51:55,990 --> 01:51:54,320
yeah it's crazy insane yeah um here's

2546
01:51:58,390 --> 01:51:56,000
another question here are these

2547
01:52:01,030 --> 01:51:58,400
intelligence agencies responsible

2548
01:52:03,750 --> 01:52:01,040
military or civilian or both and to what

2549
01:52:04,320 --> 01:52:03,760
degree

2550
01:52:05,669 --> 01:52:04,330
um

2551
01:52:07,750 --> 01:52:05,679
[Music]

2552
01:52:09,430 --> 01:52:07,760
they're they're milit i mean they're not

2553
01:52:11,109 --> 01:52:09,440
civilian they're

2554
01:52:12,950 --> 01:52:11,119
they're government

2555
01:52:16,070 --> 01:52:12,960
right

2556
01:52:18,709 --> 01:52:16,080
yes and it would depend on specifically

2557
01:52:20,149 --> 01:52:18,719
what we're talking about um like in

2558
01:52:23,510 --> 01:52:20,159
nycap

2559
01:52:26,149 --> 01:52:23,520
uh the cia certainly had an interest in

2560
01:52:27,870 --> 01:52:26,159
the launching of the organization

2561
01:52:29,430 --> 01:52:27,880
and it had

2562
01:52:35,350 --> 01:52:29,440
relationships

2563
01:52:42,070 --> 01:52:38,070
that that one was called council

2564
01:52:43,030 --> 01:52:42,080
services and was a public relations

2565
01:52:45,669 --> 01:52:43,040
firm

2566
01:52:49,109 --> 01:52:45,679
another was a government agency called

2567
01:52:50,229 --> 01:52:49,119
the economic cooperation agency

2568
01:52:53,990 --> 01:52:50,239
that

2569
01:52:56,950 --> 01:52:54,000
acted as an asset for the cia

2570
01:53:00,550 --> 01:52:56,960
and i think that that's a really common

2571
01:53:01,910 --> 01:53:00,560
theme i know it is in the intelligence

2572
01:53:05,510 --> 01:53:01,920
community

2573
01:53:08,470 --> 01:53:05,520
bag of tools to have

2574
01:53:09,830 --> 01:53:08,480
government agencies acting on its behalf

2575
01:53:19,270 --> 01:53:09,840
and

2576
01:53:22,550 --> 01:53:19,280
all right well we made it we did the

2577
01:53:24,790 --> 01:53:22,560
whole show and i do want to apologize

2578
01:53:28,149 --> 01:53:24,800
to the uh people that were trying to

2579
01:53:30,709 --> 01:53:28,159
call in and considering next week's a

2580
01:53:33,189 --> 01:53:30,719
call-in show hopefully that will be

2581
01:53:34,550 --> 01:53:33,199
fixed but thank you so much jack it's

2582
01:53:36,950 --> 01:53:34,560
always been a pleasure i like your

2583
01:53:39,109 --> 01:53:36,960
level-headedness and and your opinions

2584
01:53:41,589 --> 01:53:39,119
uh are very good in my opinion how do

2585
01:53:44,070 --> 01:53:41,599
you like that thank you very much for

2586
01:53:46,550 --> 01:53:44,080
having me it's my pleasure and i

2587
01:53:50,229 --> 01:53:46,560
appreciate it martin all right you take

2588
01:53:51,910 --> 01:53:50,239
care now and we'll talk soon

2589
01:53:53,990 --> 01:53:51,920
all right everyone so that's it for the

2590
01:53:57,109 --> 01:53:54,000
show tonight thank you so much don't

2591
01:53:58,950 --> 01:53:57,119
forget next week uh get your

2592
01:54:01,669 --> 01:53:58,960
uh well we can talk about anything talk

2593
01:54:04,149 --> 01:54:01,679
about a ufo sighting uh you wanna uh you

2594
01:54:06,870 --> 01:54:04,159
have some questions we're taking calls

2595
01:54:10,550 --> 01:54:06,880
and it's just a call-in show only next

2596
01:54:12,709 --> 01:54:10,560
week for a 500th show thank you so much

2597
01:54:17,470 --> 01:54:12,719
and remember to keep your eyes to the